Holocaust education from THE NIZKOR PROJECT

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/v/von.ebersdorf.johannes/usenet/2009/v.ebersdorf.200904

From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:19 EDT 2009
Article: 2005521 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Demjanjuk: 29,000 murder charges
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Wed, 01 Apr 2009 00:49:41 +0300, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
Holman) wrote:

>In article ,
>ebersdorf@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 30 Mar 2009 19:51:01 +0300, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
>> Holman) wrote:
>> 
>
>> 
>> Sliming people is a standard technique of the holocaust™ industry, and
>> Irving is by no means the first victim. 
>
>In this case David Irving was not a victim, since almost everything
>Deborah Lipstadt had written criticizing his professional misconduct could
>easily be demonstrated to be factually true, enough additional examples
>could be presented to demonstrate that she had identified a pattern of
>systematic professional misconduct rather than errors due to sloppiness or
>igorance, and the two cases that could not be demonstrated to be factually
>true could be shown to be based on David Irving's own accounts of his
>exploits and thus could not be considered maliciously false even if there
>were no independent facts available to demonsrate them to be true.
>
>> He was probably throwing good
>> money after bad in trying to get people like Lipstadt to lay off using
>> the courts.
>
>Your sentence doesn't make sense. Deborah Lipstadt was not the one
>resorting to use of the courts in this particular case.

Nobody said she was. Irving was trying to get the woman off his back
with her character assassination techniques, but the British courts
proved to be worthless in terms of protecting him from Lipstadt and
her big-money backers.

Hiring a nice death squad from El Salvador would have been cheaper and
a lot more effective than the British courts, but then that technique
tends to have other complications that follow.

>David Irving
>thought that once Prof. Lipstadt's book was published on his home turf,
>where libel law favors the plaintiff, he could use the court to silence
>critics by having legitimate professional criticism of his work,
>methodology, and public behavior declared libelous consequent to suing the
>critic and her publisher. The strategem, ill advised in a culture where
>public criticism of malpractice is the professional responsiblity of the
>community offended, didn't work. 
>
>David Irving wanted to be regarded as a brilliant and iconoclastic
>historian, so he got his name into the spotlight and constructed a
>reputation for himself by consistently falsifying and fabricating crucial
>details concerning his primay data. Historian Deborah Lipstadt collected
>several examples of such unacceptable professional behavior and brought it
>to the attention of her professional community and the public at large.
>David Irving never denied his professional misconduct, but he tried to
>hijack the British court system to prevent legitimate criticism of his
>professional misconduct from reaching the wider public and his potential
>future readership.
>
>
>
>Regards,
>Eugene Holman


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:19 EDT 2009
Article: 2005522 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazi guard a free man in Austria
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Thu, 2 Apr 2009 08:30:14 -0700 (PDT), Michael Ejercito
 wrote:

>On Apr 1, 5:48 pm, Topaz  wrote:
>>   Here is a quote from "The Battle for Berlin" by Joseph Goebbels:
>   Invading the U.S.S.R. did not work out too well for you guys.

If Hitler hadn't invaded the USSR, the USSR would undoubtedly have
invaded Germany by July of 1941. Germany bought a few more years of
survival through the pre-emptive invasion. All the Soviet positions
shouted "pending invasion" rather than being defensive in nature.

>
>
> Michael


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:20 EDT 2009
Article: 2005523 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazi guard a free man in Austria
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Wed, 1 Apr 2009 09:10:26 -0700 (PDT), Michael Ejercito
 wrote:

>On Mar 30, 5:31 am, Johannes von Ebersdorf 
>wrote:
>> On Sat, 28 Mar 2009 11:50:09 -0700 (PDT),Michael Ejercito
>>
>>  wrote:
>> >On Mar 28, 5:57 am, Topaz  wrote:
>> >> by James Buchanan
>>
>> >> Let's say the Germans merely removed the Jews from positions of
>> >> political power and banned them from the legal profession.
>> >   How were things in Germany on May 1, 1945?
>>
>> What is special about May 1?
>   It was the day after Hitler killed himself.

The war continued unabated, and it was the German armed services that
decided a week later that it was impractical to continue. The
machinery of state continued to function and a new chancellor was
appointed in the form of Grand Admiral Dönitz. There was nothing
special about May 1. It was May 8 that was the onset of the
catastrophe for Germany. Far more people died AFTER May 8, 1945 than
had died between January 30, 1933 and May 8, 1945. It was another one
of those Iraqi-style allied "liberations" that have now clearly become
the pattern of allied "liberations".


>
>
> Michael


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:20 EDT 2009
Article: 2005525 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Excommunicated English "Holocaust denier" bishop reinstated by Pope
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Wed, 1 Apr 2009 15:33:11 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:8pr4t45bjh4lnr551a99qe0f6nipktoii6@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 19:34:47 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>news:pkn4t45nu0a1hk71v244t3vg1ktnnhd0ib@4ax.com...
>>>> On Mon, 30 Mar 2009 22:59:48 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>>>news:ftm1t4trursgmfr8t4v8jkfn40n05mgqhv@4ax.com...
>>>>>> On Mon, 30 Mar 2009 14:24:11 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>news:ese1t459hkcgejphoibtvs5pcffmum731s@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 28 Mar 2009 22:56:24 -0000, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>[snip]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Disputing some aspect or another of the Norman Conquest or the feats
>>>>>>>> of Alexander the Great will not get you thrown in jail.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>WRONG! If you are in the UK and you deny the Norman invasion and the
>>>>>>>consequent seccession of Monarchs you may come under a criminal 
>>>>>>>offence
>>>>>>>which related to insulting the Monarch which you may believe is not a
>>>>>>>Monarch.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> LOL
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Your current German royal family has no connection whatsoever with the
>>>>>> Normans, except for being monarchs of the same state.
>>>>>
>>>>>Due to the war of the roses leading to tudors and the hanoverian
>>>>>succession
>>>>>due to william III invasion I will accept that criticism. and withdraw 
>>>>>the
>>>>>remark as unsupported
>>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_British_line_of_succession
>>>>>
>>>>>However under the post monarchy irish constitutional Republic and in the
>>>>>current British monarchy the offence of blastphemy still exists as far 
>>>>>as
>>>>>I
>>>>>know. so while denying the Normans of a thousand years ago many or may 
>>>>>not
>>>>>be a crime denying christ of two thousand years ago is! Not alone that 
>>>>>but
>>>>>people are and have been killed for beliefs related to Christianity from
>>>>>christ himself through martyrs up to people killed by fundamentalist
>>>>>christians today.
>>>>
>>>> I guess that the Brits need to clean the cobwebs out of their statute
>>>> books. Blasphemy is rather ambiguous, since it depends entirely on
>>>> whose superstitions you are criticizing.
>>>
>>>
>>>Not just the British. Ireland is a constitutional Republic but does indeed
>>>have common law continuation from the British. but to be honest codified
>>>systems have other problems . But that is a different topic to historic 
>>>laws
>>>still applying today. I believe I have shown that they do and in face
>>>PRECEDENT is all about this so Holocaust denial is not the only crime 
>>>based
>>>on insisting and interpretation of history as true.
>>
>> Yes, there are indeed precedents for the holocaustT laws, but not in
>> the most recent two or three centuries. The Roman Church had a long
>> history of keeping its lies afloat by burning people at the stake,
>> poking their eyes out, or throwing them into dungeons, but even such
>> extreme measures were not able to suppress the truth forever.
>
>That is nonsence! the RC Church did very little in the way of this . the 
>Inquisition in various guises lasted for about five hundred years. In that 
>time at most thousands were executed by it. While I do not justify it 
>compared to other acts from that time it isnt huge. for example the 
>atheistic purge arising during the terror in one place in France (the 
>Vendee) say the execution of more catholics then the entire five centuries 
>of the Inquisition. Indeed the worst Inquisitions (Spanish and Portugese) 
>targeted Jews. But it wasnt about "surpressing the truth" but more about 
>rooting out heresy. And In the Spanish case it became totally corrupted 
>because the Inquisitors took over the possessions and land of the person 
>they accused - nothing to do even with a misguided notion of a conspiracy to 
>surpress truth.
>
>again I suspect you wil produce NO FACTS about how many people were burned 
>at the stake and in what years it happened in spite of your "long history" 
>of doing it claim!
>
>So much for your claims about history standing on its own! I am a real 
>revisionist. You are an interloper. you haven't a clue and it seems you 
>don't want to learn either preferring your biased bigotry to informed 
>opinion.

There are no historical supports for your claim of "at most a few
thousand" victims of the witch hunts, heretic hunts, etc. of the
Church of Rome, probably the most evil institution ever to exist in
human history. I'm glad that Luther and the German Princes managed to
destroy its influence in Germany.

>
>
>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>[snip]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Historical facts tend to stand on their own and do not require
>>>>>>>> legislative protection.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Examples???
>>>>>>>Have you ANY example to support this contention? Say three examples?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The holocaust is unique in requiring legislative support.
>>>>>
>>>>>Have you examples of any others which you claim "stand on their own" and
>>>>>"do
>>>>>not require legislative support"? what historical fact do you claim
>>>>>"stands
>>>>>on its own"?
>>>>>Can you give an example of three such "FACTS" which you seem so suer 
>>>>>stand
>>>>>on theior own and are facts?
>>>>>
>>>>>Ill bet you cant cite one from the last 500 years one from the 1000 
>>>>>years
>>>>>before that and noe from over 2000 years ago.
>>>>>
>>>>>In spite of saying all of history is a collection of "FACTS" that stand 
>>>>>on
>>>>>their own  you cant even cite three from the last 2500 years! Can you?
>>>
>>>evasion noted. In spie of saying everything else apart from the Holocaust
>>>stands on its own you can't cite three examples from the ennumerable ones 
>>>in
>>>history!
>>>LOL!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Clearly the holocaustT story is in need of
>>>>>>>> legislative protection and in need of rat packs like the McFee-McVay
>>>>>>>> duo to threaten, intimidate and cajole people into paying lip 
>>>>>>>> service
>>>>>>>> to the story whether they actually believe it or not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>No. Im my country holocaust denial is NOT a crime
>>>>>[snip]
>>> 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:20 EDT 2009
Article: 2005527 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: freed from holocaust denial
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 18:57:17 -0700 (PDT), Michael Ejercito
 wrote:

>On Mar 31, 11:07 am, Johannes von Ebersdorf 
>wrote:
>> On Mon, 30 Mar 2009 08:20:38 -0700 (PDT), Michael Ejercito
>>
>>  wrote:
>> >On Mar 27, 10:14 pm, "B.H. Cramer"  wrote:
>> >> "Heinrich"  wrote in message
>>
>> >>news:735t7sFrf6pcU1@mid.individual.net...
>>
>> >> > Greek court officials said judges overturned Friday a far-rightist's
>> >> > conviction for inciting racial hatred with a book that denies the
>> >> > Holocaust took place.
>>
>> >> That is splendid news.
>>
>> >> Now to overturn the convictions and sentences of Germar Rudolf, Ernst
>> >> Zundel, Stolz et al.
>> >   On what basis?
>>
>> Political "propaganda offences" have no place in a democracy.
>>
>   Yes, but the laws would have to be changed first, followed with
>pardons.
>
>   Judges would not be able to overturn those convictions on there
>own; there is no legal protection of freedom of speech in those
>places.

In Germany, supposedly there actually IS freedom of speech and freedom
of opinion, so the propaganda laws are probably unconstitutional, but
it would be very difficult for any lawyer to challenge them in court
without himself falling victim to the legislation. That is exactly why
the aforementioned defendants didn't get much legal representation
because the lawyers representing them do so at great personal risk.
Several lawyers have found themselves in the prisoner's docket for
something they said trying to defend their clients.

In Canada, lawyers such as Douglas Christie do not have to fear court
reprisals for defending their clients.


>
>
> Michael


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:21 EDT 2009
Article: 2005528 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: racing old jew stuns police
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 20:36:51 -0700 (PDT), z 
wrote:

>On Mar 29, 12:23 am, william hubbard 
>wrote:
>> On Mar 28, 12:00 pm, "Heinrich"  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > Police officers surprised: Traffic police in Israel are used to nabbbing
>> > young drivers traveling at high speed, yet on Saturday officers on Highway
>> > 65 were in for a surprise - A motorist nabbed traveling at 191 kilometers an
>> > hour (roughly 120 miles an hour) turned out to be an 83-year-old man.
>>
>> > The elderly speed junky told police he was in a rush to get home.
>>
>> > The man, who was traveling in a Subaru at more than double the speed limit,
>> > does not have a long history of traffic violations, the police said.
>> > However, officials noted that he has been convicted of traveling above the
>> > spend limit several times.
>>
>> > The speeding driver's license was revoked on the spot, and he will face
>> > justice at the local traffic court.
>>
>> > Only two and a half weeks ago, a 21-year-old Palestinian from Ramallah was
>> > nabbed while traveling at 215 kilometers an hour on Highway 1, en route to
>> > the Dead Sea. The speed limit on the highway is 90 kilometers an hour.
>>
>> i suspect it was a WRX, and it is good to know that the old man has
>> such enthusiasm..- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>Here's another:
>
>"Woman accused of driving 103 with grandson in car
>Mar 31st, 2009 | SALEM, Ore. -- Authorities arrested a woman accused
>of driving 103 mph with her 10-year-old grandson in the car. Sheriff's
>Lt. Sheila Lorance said Deputy Ryan Postlewait saw the woman's Mazda 6
>whizz by on Hylo Road on Sunday, and he confirmed the speed on a radar
>gun. Though the road is known to attract speeders, Postlewait reported
>that he has never clocked anyone driving that fast."
>http://www.salon.com/wires/ap/2009/03/31/D979BOK01_odd_speeding_grandmother/index.html

100 mph is only 160 km/h. There was a recent case here in Ontario
where a young man was clocked at 260 km/h on one of the local
highways. I can't remember the make of the car, however.

>
>it's an international epidemic
>
>my theory is that the speed limit should be equal to your age.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:21 EDT 2009
Article: 2005533 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jesus tried to warn us about the Jews -"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lust of your father ye will do."
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Wed, 1 Apr 2009 15:22:10 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:1qq4t41c7o2r9n0v9h33uph60bvnh8gmrf@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 09:32:48 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>news:CsmdnZPaZOVxpl7UnZ2dnVY3go2dnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>[snip]
>>>>>>
>>>>> Jesus was a Jew himself.
>>>>
>>>> Are you sure about that?  You can prove that?
>>>>
>>>The historicity of Jesus is an established field of research.
>>>But if anyone believes in Jesus Christ existing in the past then it is
>>>ludicrous to believe he was NOT a Jew.
>>>If one is claiming that Jesus Christ never existed then claiming he was or
>>>was not a Jew is pointless since one assigning an attribute to something
>>>which does not exist - a bit like saying the dragon was BLUE. It is
>>>pointless to argue about whether they are blue red or yellow if your main
>>>point is that dragons never existed.
>>>
>>>As it happens though the historicity of Jesus is as established (or 
>>>probably
>>>more established) as say Alexander the Great for example.
>>
>> Actually no, since lots of people saw or experienced Alexander the
>> Great,
>
>Really?
>And your evidence is?
>Lots of people also saw and experienced Jesus by the way.

Nonsense. Jesus wrote nothing, built nothing, founded nothing, and
simply was not noticed by anybody other than the people who wrote the
scriptures.

>What evidence do you have from "lots" of people? I am aware of at most maybe 
>a dozen sources which can be traced to that time. and even THEY are not 
>original extant sources. Most sources are from CENTURIES later. in fact I am 
>only aware of maybe ONE or TWO artifacts which date from the time of 
>alexander which may be construed as a reference to him.

That is all crap. There are Persian records of Alexander's exploits,
Indian records of Alexander's exploits, Egyptian records of
Alexander's exploits and a whole trail of new Greek states and cities
in his wake. It is extremely unlikely that all these different people
living in different societies were all stoned on pot at the same time
and saw hallucinations that were coordinated. 

Silly statements such as yours are one of the reasons that the term
"Christian" has become a synonym for "drooling imbecile".

>
>>whereas the only references to Jesus are in the Christian
>> scriptures,
>
>WRONG! Roman historians wrote of him and others outsede of the accepted 
>canon of Holy scriptures.

Show me just ONE non scriptural reference to Jesus, and you will
become world famous, since you will be the only person ever to have
produced one.

> But my poiint is that people accepted Jesus 
>existed (whether or not he was God).

Religious folks accept all manner of stuff without evidence or proof.
That is the nature of a religion.


> few say he didnt. 

The bulk of the world's people would dispute the divinity of Christ,
and even a few Christians.

>More however seem to 
>think the Holocaust which has loads more evidence didn't happen.

Show me some physical evidence that will stand up to scientific
scrutiny for the "jumping buckets of flesh" stories, or the
"flame-belching crematoria". Obviously there actually WAS a
significant death toll among Jews, but that isn't quite the same thing
as uncritically and naively accepting every ridiculous fable that is
in circulation about that period.

>
>>all written at least a century after the traditional date
>> of the crucifixion.
>
>Not necessarily true. some may be first century. Certainly the second 
>century stuff refers to the earlier works of which people do not have whole 
>copies. But what about Alexander the Great?  The things written about him 
>are from books at least THREE centuries later! not ONE but THREE!

There was much material written about Alexander DURING his lifetime,
especially by his Persian and Greek enemies. Those count as
independent verification because they were not penned by followers and
lackeys of the person under consideration.

>
>>There is no independent verification of Christ's
>> existence, whereas there are plentiful references to Alexander the
>> Great,
>
>Really? Suppose you produce say five or six of these "plentiful" references. 

Good Lord, woman, go into any library and there are still plentiful
references to Alexander, despite the campaign of the Church of Rome to
have all records of antiquity destroyed.

>Ill bet you cant produce one because I have studied the field

If that is the case, then it wasn't much of an educational
institution.

> and I expect 
>you wont find a SINGLE reference! go on produce five of these "plenty" can 
>you?
>
>>especially since Alexander overthrew a lot of existing states
>> and founded a number of cities.
>
>Did he? and you know that because? You seem to believe it without seeing ANY 
>evidence! Yet whenh it comes to the holocaust you doubt all the loads of 
>evidence. why dont you apply even a tiny amount of that doubt for Alexander 
>for whom you have seen no extant evidence?
>
>Mind you all the more reason to be amazed at the son of a Carpenter being 
>remembered MORE then and written MORE about than the Greatest General in 
>history and the conquerer of the world at the time!

Most of the Bible stories come under the heading of fables, and cannot
be confused with history. All human religions, including yours,
consist of fables and legends. They all have the same validity.

>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:22 EDT 2009
Article: 2005539 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Canadian anti-Semitic incidents rise
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Wed, 1 Apr 2009 08:29:53 -0700, "ÇDoügßT"  wrote:

>"Heinrich"  wrote in message 
>news:73hehnFssmpnU1@mid.individual.net...
>> OTTAWA : Anti-Semitism in Canada is "at an all-time high," according to 
>> the findings of an annual audit.
>>
>> Anti-Semitic incidents in Canada rose by 8.9 percent in 2008 over the 
>> previous year, due partly to the sour economy, according to B'nai Brith 
>> Canada's League for Human Rights. Its 2008 Audit of Anti-Semitic Incidents 
>> released Tuesday tallied 1,135 incidents, representing a more than a 
>> four-fold increase in incidents over the past decade.
>>
>> The findings "offer a paradoxical view of the state of anti-Jewish 
>> prejudice in Canada," said Frank Dimant, B'nai Brith Canada's executive 
>> vice president. "On one hand we have a government that has made it a 
>> priority to root out hatred and an official Liberal opposition that also 
>> recognizes the widespread anti-Jewish prejudice against our community."
>>
>> Jews are again being scapegoated, "this time by disgruntled citizens 
>> impacted by an ailing economy," the audit said. It is no accident, 
>> according to the audit, that 547 incidents -- nearly half the total in 
>> Canada -- took place in the final four months of 2008.
>>
>> "We attribute this to the fallout from the developing economic recession 
>> and such high-profile fiascos as the Bernard Madoff scandal," B'nai Brith 
>> Canada said in a news release.
>>
>> December saw the highest total of the year with 151 incidents -- 70 were 
>> related to the start of Israel's military operation in Gaza, the 
>> organization noted. Of these, 36 occurred in the last few days of the year 
>> as tensions heightened.
>> __________________
>>
>
>The reason is the mass immigration/invasion of islamonazi pigs to
>Canada. At the local university in Southern California where I live
>we NEVER had problems w/public anti-semitic bullshit until the muslime
>pigs showed up. 

Crap. There are a handful of Muslims in Canada, and the vast bulk of
them are productive and law-abiding citizens. There are a handful of
extremists, but they have little influence in Canada and neither do
Christian extremists.

American hate-mongers and ridiculous bigots like yourself are
nauseating.

>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:22 EDT 2009
Article: 2005799 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Demjanjuk: 29,000 murder charges
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On Thu, 02 Apr 2009 21:49:39 -0400, Gord McFee 
wrote:

>On 3/31/2009 12:03 AM, Eugene Holman wrote:
>
>> In article , Gord
>>  McFee  wrote:
>> 
>>> On 3/30/2009 9:00 AM, Johannes von Ebersdorf wrote:
>>> 
>> 
>>>> This material does appear to be written on a German typewriter,
>>>> but then it didn't surface until 1947, so Americans getting hold
>>>> of German typewriters would have been no problem. Anything that
>>>> was ever in allied hands is suspect, and cannot simply be taken
>>>> at face value. The paper would need to be analyzed to make sure
>>>> that it is consistent with the ministry allegedly involved, the
>>>> typewriter ink would need chemical analysis to make sure that it
>>>> was of German origin, and numerous other physical aspects.
>>> I guess I should have expected something like that.  First you
>>> claim the document were not written by a German speaking person.
>>> Then, when it is clear it was, you have to resort to the forgery
>>> gambit.
>> 
>> And if the chemical analysis demonstrated everything to be of German 
>> origin he could accuse the chemists of bias, being paid by the Jews,
>> or (gasp!) of being Jews themselves. These folks never give up and
>> are never convinced. It's always a matter of supervising the people
>> who supervise the supervisors.
>
>Indeed.  They are unable and unwilling to approach the issue empirically
>because their minds are already made up.

That accusation fits you a hell of a lot better than it fits me.



From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:22 EDT 2009
Article: 2005800 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Demjanjuk: 29,000 murder charges
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Thu, 02 Apr 2009 21:53:47 -0400, Gord McFee 
wrote:

>On 3/31/2009 2:24 PM, Johannes von Ebersdorf wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 30 Mar 2009 21:03:33 -0400, Gord McFee
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>> On 3/30/2009 9:00 AM, Johannes von Ebersdorf wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On Sat, 28 Mar 2009 21:45:27 -0400, Gord McFee 
>>>>  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> On Sat, 28 Mar 2009 11:54:04 -0400, in 
>>>>> , Johannes von 
>>>>> Ebersdorf  wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Sat, 28 Mar 2009 09:40:32 -0400, Gord McFee 
>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>> [...]
>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> The language used in the Wannsee Protocol is dry,
>>>>>>>>> arcane bureaucratic German, yes.  I have never said
>>>>>>>>> otherwise. Ben, you know I am a bureaucrat.  I am the
>>>>>>>>> first to admit that bureaucrats do not write beautiful
>>>>>>>>> language.
>>>>>>>> Having seen photocopies of the Wannsee Protocols, I would
>>>>>>>> say that dry arcane German is the least of their
>>>>>>>> problems. It seems, like in so many other cases, that the
>>>>>>>> originals are nowhere to be found and all that remains
>>>>>>>> are these allied "official" copies of a copy that were
>>>>>>>> clearly typed on an American typewriter.
>>>>>>> That is simply invention on your part.
>>>>>> I've seen quite a few obvious forgeries. The only invention
>>>>>> was on the part of the Americans/British who created the
>>>>>> documents.
>>>>> Then I would be interested in your take on the Wannsee
>>>>> Protokoll original here:
>>>> This material does appear to be written on a German typewriter,
>>>> but then it didn't surface until 1947, so Americans getting hold
>>>> of German typewriters would have been no problem. Anything that
>>>> was ever in allied hands is suspect, and cannot simply be taken
>>>> at face value. The paper would need to be analyzed to make sure
>>>> that it is consistent with the ministry allegedly involved, the
>>>> typewriter ink would need chemical analysis to make sure that it
>>>> was of German origin, and numerous other physical aspects.
>>> I guess I should have expected something like that.  First you
>>> claim the document were not written by a German speaking person.
>> 
>> I didn't say anything about it being written by a German-speaking 
>> person. That was your straw man. The allies surely had some 
>> German-speaking employees capable of putting something like this 
>> together, but that hardly proves that the item is genuine or even 
>> significant.
>> 
>> The infamous Zimmermann telegraph of WW1 was a forgery created in 
>> Toronto, and that only become public more than half a century after 
>> the fact.
>> 
>> I really don't trust any documents that have ever been in allied 
>> hands. They have a long, long history of fraud.
>
>Very convenient, since all the captured documents were in some allied
>hands at some point, so you neatly dismiss every single Nazi document.
>The Führer would be proud.
>
>By the way, can you provide a scintilla of support fr your fairy tale
>that the Zimmerman telegram was fake?
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimmermann_Telegram
>
>Of course you can't.

Take your whine to the Toronto Star. They published a story a few
years ago indicating that the so-called Zimmermann telegram was
fabricated in Toronto.

Besides, no German foreign minister would ever send such a thing by
telegram, a medium that is easily intercepted. With that content, the
message would have been delivered personally and written in code.

Your continuous demands for "proof" are getting sillier by the day. I
don't keep a running log of everything I read just in case I encounter
the McFee jackass on usenet some future year.



From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:23 EDT 2009
Article: 2005801 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Demjanjuk: 29,000 murder charges
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Thu, 02 Apr 2009 21:57:54 -0400, Gord McFee 
wrote:

>On 3/31/2009 2:27 PM, Johannes von Ebersdorf wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 30 Mar 2009 21:04:47 -0400, Gord McFee 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> On 3/30/2009 9:09 AM, Johannes von Ebersdorf wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 28 Mar 2009 21:46:52 -0400, Gord McFee
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 28 Mar 2009 23:04:36 -0000, in 
>>>>> <8c163$49ceaf9a$596480f8$25997@news.upc.ie>, "Mavisbeacon" 
>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> [...]
>>>>>
>>>>>> And for his next trick, Cramer will claim that original gospels
>>>>>> don't exiat and no original copies of Homer, or of the writings
>>>>>> of Plato and Aristotle or of the teachings of Socrates. So based
>>>>>> on that he will argue that Jesus didnt exist or alexander the
>>>>>> Great or socrates or the Normans or anything else in history for
>>>>>> which he has not seen the original copies of anything written by
>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> do people not find it strange that he seems only to douby the
>>>>>> WWII Holocaust and not apply the same degree of doubt to things
>>>>>> with much less evidence?
>>>>> Not in the slightest.  He is a Holocaust denier and that is their 
>>>>> modus operandi.
>>>> You're being rather silly, olde gourd.
>>> I take it Cramer has fled the scene for a while and you are the substitute?
>> 
>> Mr. Cramer's only connection to me is that we sometimes battle the
>> same idiots on this newsgroup. We most likely would not see eye to eye
>> on many topics, but here the opponents are so fanatical, hysterical
>> and bigoted that somebody has to offer some opposition to their
>> nonsense.
>
>So you are the substitute.  Pity.

Gourd, if you had a brain you would be dangerous.



From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:23 EDT 2009
Article: 2005803 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Demjanjuk: 29,000 murder charges
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Fri, 03 Apr 2009 07:20:44 +0300, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
Holman) wrote:

>In article ,
>ebersdorf@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 01 Apr 2009 00:49:41 +0300, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
>> Holman) wrote:
>> 
>
>> >
>> >Your sentence doesn't make sense. Deborah Lipstadt was not the one
>> >resorting to use of the courts in this particular case.
>> 
>> Nobody said she was. Irving was trying to get the woman off his back
>> with her character assassination techniques,...
>
>How was Deborah Lipstadt using "character assassination techniques"? She
>wrote that he was a dishonest historian, something that had been known
>since David Irving's lost libel suit and the fallout from his book about
>the bombing of Dresden,

Irving's book on Dresden is consistent with the observations and
recollections of people who were there. Lipstadt is just another paid
propagandist whose job it is to excuse or minimize allied crimes.

> and she backed up her claims with concrete and
>undeniable examles. If you accuse someone of professional malpractice and
>then support your accusation with dozens of examples, you are not engaging
>in character assassination, but rather doing the public a service.
>
>> but the British courts
>> proved to be worthless in terms of protecting him from Lipstadt and
>> her big-money backers.
>
>Quite the opposite. The British courts proved that they cannot be hijacked
>to protect a British citizen from accusations of malpractice leveled by a
>foreigner if the accusations are demonstrably true. 
> 
>> Hiring a nice death squad from El Salvador would have been cheaper and
>> a lot more effective than the British courts, but then that technique
>> tends to have other complications that follow.
>
>Is that really the way that you think people courageous enough to expose
>serial malpractioners should be dealt with? You have no problems with
>wannabe historians whose "sensational discoveries" turn out to be nothing
>more than manipulation of dates and deliberately mistranslating documents?
>Do you also recommend the El Salvadoran method of termination with extreme
>prejudice to be used on people who expose cow doctors practicing medicine
>on humans?
>
>
>
>Regards,
>Eugene Holman


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:23 EDT 2009
Article: 2005805 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazi guard a free man in Austria
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On Thu, 02 Apr 2009 22:09:02 -0400, Gord McFee 
wrote:

>On 3/31/2009 2:15 PM, Johannes von Ebersdorf wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 30 Mar 2009 21:32:54 -0400, Gord McFee
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>> On 3/30/2009 9:39 AM, Johannes von Ebersdorf wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On Sat, 28 Mar 2009 23:19:21 -0400, Gord McFee 
>>>>  wrote:
>>> [...]
>>> 
>>>>>> Who started what is debatable. I see you are sticking to the
>>>>>>  thoughtless allied propaganda claims. That is part of the
>>>>>> reason I reject the rest of your stories. AJP Taylor's book
>>>>>> "The Origins of the Second World War" makes some sense,
>>>>>> whereas you never have.
>>>>>> 
>>>>> I have read his book more than once and there is a great deal
>>>>> of truth in it.  Actually, his book is an example of
>>>>> *legitimate* revisionism.
>>>>> 
>>>>> But the fact remains that Hitler invaded Poland after having
>>>>> been explicitly told, several months before, that if he did so,
>>>>> treaty obligations would require England to intervene.
>>>> Britain said that the Polish frontier wasn't worth the bones of a
>>>>  single British grenadier, and suddenly allowing Poland to keep a
>>>> few square kilometres of stolen German land was worth the
>>>> sacrifice of more than fifty million people. Poland was merely an
>>>> excuse to try to legitimize a war that Churchill had planned for
>>>> years.
>>> Even if that were true, which it isn't,
>> 
>> We have only your assertion for that, and it simply isn't worth much.
>> 
>No, we have both German and British documents that confirm it.

Bullshit.

>
>>> the fact remains that Hitler knew before he invaded Poland that
>>> Britain was obliged to come to Poland's defence.
>> 
>> Nonsense. Britain didn't come to Poland's defence since they said not
>>  a peep about the simultaneous Soviet invasion.
>
>They declared war.

Britain wanted war for its own reasons, not to "save" Poland. They
didn't give a flying shit about Poland.

>
>>>>> And Goebbels and his wife murdered their own children.
>>>> I guess they saw visions of Nemmersdorf and numerous other places
>>>> the allies visited.
>>> No, they were simply fanatical and selfish.

That is just your simple-minded historical tripe.

>> 
>> No, you're simply full of shit.
>
>Ah, when trumped, insult the other person.  Mr Webb has you bunch pegged.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:24 EDT 2009
Article: 2005807 of alt.revisionism
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazi guard a free man in Austria
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On Thu, 02 Apr 2009 22:21:13 -0400, Gord McFee 
wrote:

>On 4/2/2009 3:48 PM, Johannes von Ebersdorf wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 1 Apr 2009 09:10:26 -0700 (PDT), Michael Ejercito
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>> On Mar 30, 5:31 am, Johannes von Ebersdorf 
>>> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 28 Mar 2009 11:50:09 -0700 (PDT),Michael Ejercito
>>>>
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>> On Mar 28, 5:57 am, Topaz  wrote:
>>>>>> by James Buchanan
>>>>>> Let's say the Germans merely removed the Jews from positions of
>>>>>> political power and banned them from the legal profession.
>>>>>   How were things in Germany on May 1, 1945?
>>>> What is special about May 1?
>>>   It was the day after Hitler killed himself.
>> 
>> The war continued unabated, and it was the German armed services that
>> decided a week later that it was impractical to continue. The
>> machinery of state continued to function and a new chancellor was
>> appointed in the form of Grand Admiral Dönitz. There was nothing
>> special about May 1. It was May 8 that was the onset of the
>> catastrophe for Germany. Far more people died AFTER May 8, 1945 than
>> had died between January 30, 1933 and May 8, 1945. It was another one
>> of those Iraqi-style allied "liberations" that have now clearly become
>> the pattern of allied "liberations".
>
>I don't know what you are imbibing, but it must be illegal.

LOL

When cornered, olde gourd accuses others of being druggies.

It is pretty much common knowledge that the dying in Germany basically
started on May 8, 1945 putting all the war deaths into shadow.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:24 EDT 2009
Article: 2005810 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Excommunicated English "Holocaust denier" bishop reinstated by Pope
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Fri, 3 Apr 2009 01:56:39 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:1n5at41lj3a7dpvna952mri0lbg0vlv4sr@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 1 Apr 2009 15:33:11 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>news:8pr4t45bjh4lnr551a99qe0f6nipktoii6@4ax.com...
>>>> On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 19:34:47 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>>>news:pkn4t45nu0a1hk71v244t3vg1ktnnhd0ib@4ax.com...
>>>>>> On Mon, 30 Mar 2009 22:59:48 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>news:ftm1t4trursgmfr8t4v8jkfn40n05mgqhv@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 30 Mar 2009 14:24:11 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>news:ese1t459hkcgejphoibtvs5pcffmum731s@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 28 Mar 2009 22:56:24 -0000, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>[snip]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Disputing some aspect or another of the Norman Conquest or the 
>>>>>>>>>> feats
>>>>>>>>>> of Alexander the Great will not get you thrown in jail.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>WRONG! If you are in the UK and you deny the Norman invasion and the
>>>>>>>>>consequent seccession of Monarchs you may come under a criminal
>>>>>>>>>offence
>>>>>>>>>which related to insulting the Monarch which you may believe is not 
>>>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>>>Monarch.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> LOL
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your current German royal family has no connection whatsoever with 
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> Normans, except for being monarchs of the same state.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Due to the war of the roses leading to tudors and the hanoverian
>>>>>>>succession
>>>>>>>due to william III invasion I will accept that criticism. and withdraw
>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>remark as unsupported
>>>>>>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_British_line_of_succession
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>However under the post monarchy irish constitutional Republic and in 
>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>current British monarchy the offence of blastphemy still exists as far
>>>>>>>as
>>>>>>>I
>>>>>>>know. so while denying the Normans of a thousand years ago many or may
>>>>>>>not
>>>>>>>be a crime denying christ of two thousand years ago is! Not alone that
>>>>>>>but
>>>>>>>people are and have been killed for beliefs related to Christianity 
>>>>>>>from
>>>>>>>christ himself through martyrs up to people killed by fundamentalist
>>>>>>>christians today.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I guess that the Brits need to clean the cobwebs out of their statute
>>>>>> books. Blasphemy is rather ambiguous, since it depends entirely on
>>>>>> whose superstitions you are criticizing.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Not just the British. Ireland is a constitutional Republic but does 
>>>>>indeed
>>>>>have common law continuation from the British. but to be honest codified
>>>>>systems have other problems . But that is a different topic to historic
>>>>>laws
>>>>>still applying today. I believe I have shown that they do and in face
>>>>>PRECEDENT is all about this so Holocaust denial is not the only crime
>>>>>based
>>>>>on insisting and interpretation of history as true.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, there are indeed precedents for the holocaustT laws, but not in
>>>> the most recent two or three centuries. The Roman Church had a long
>>>> history of keeping its lies afloat by burning people at the stake,
>>>> poking their eyes out, or throwing them into dungeons, but even such
>>>> extreme measures were not able to suppress the truth forever.
>>>
>>>That is nonsence! the RC Church did very little in the way of this . the
>>>Inquisition in various guises lasted for about five hundred years. In that
>>>time at most thousands were executed by it. While I do not justify it
>>>compared to other acts from that time it isnt huge. for example the
>>>atheistic purge arising during the terror in one place in France (the
>>>Vendee) say the execution of more catholics then the entire five centuries
>>>of the Inquisition. Indeed the worst Inquisitions (Spanish and Portugese)
>>>targeted Jews. But it wasnt about "surpressing the truth" but more about
>>>rooting out heresy. And In the Spanish case it became totally corrupted
>>>because the Inquisitors took over the possessions and land of the person
>>>they accused - nothing to do even with a misguided notion of a conspiracy 
>>>to
>>>surpress truth.
>>>
>>>again I suspect you wil produce NO FACTS about how many people were burned
>>>at the stake and in what years it happened in spite of your "long history"
>>>of doing it claim!
>>>
>>>So much for your claims about history standing on its own! I am a real
>>>revisionist. You are an interloper. you haven't a clue and it seems you
>>>don't want to learn either preferring your biased bigotry to informed
>>>opinion.
>>
>> There are no historical supports for your claim of "at most a few
>> thousand" victims of the witch hunts, heretic hunts, etc. of the
>> Church of Rome, probably the most evil institution ever to exist in
>> human history. I'm glad that Luther and the German Princes managed to
>> destroy its influence in Germany.
>
>first of all I made no such claim! Where did I? Indeed Witch finding and 
>witch hunting becme a decidely Protestant diversion and not really a huge 
>Roman Church preoccupation.
>The total number of witch trials in Europe which are known for certain to 
>have ended in executions is around 12,000 
>http://www.summerlands.com/crossroads/remembrance/current.htm
>Witch hunting was worst in central Europe: in Germany, Switzerland, and 
>France. Generally speaking, the further you got away from this area, the 
>less persecution there was. For example, Ireland, Portugal, and Russia all 
>had less than a dozen executions.
>
>Nothing like the ten millions plus during the Holocaust!

You denier you! It was ten trillion if it was one.

>
>No go back and look at what you think I claimed. I mentioned the Inquisition 
>and the worst of these by far was the Spanish one.
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition#Death_tolls
>The historian Hernando del Pulgar, contemporary of Ferdinand and Isabella, 
>estimated that the Inquisition had burned at the stake 2,000 people.
>Henningsen-Contreras statistics for the period 1540-1700
>Executions reported (all areas from 1540 to 1700) = 826
>Least amount expected = 1080
>
>Thats 1,000 over 160 years about 7 a year on average!
>
>I dont justify it but compared to the Holocaust it is tiny in scale.
>
>AS regards the German Lutheran  rooting out of Catholics... The most 
>catholic country in the world per capita is Ireland. they had about 4 
>witches executed. Germany had about 26,000 and many of these were in 
>Protestant regions.

You pull these figures out of your fundament, do you? Germany was one
of the few countries where the inquisition did not take hold and where
it had little support.

>
>[snip]
>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In spite of saying all of history is a collection of "FACTS" that 
>>>>>>>stand
>>>>>>>on
>>>>>>>their own  you cant even cite three from the last 2500 years! Can you?
>>>>>
>>>>>evasion noted. In spie of saying everything else apart from the 
>>>>>Holocaust
>>>>>stands on its own you can't cite three examples from the ennumerable 
>>>>>ones
>>>>>in
>>>>>history!
>>>>>LOL!
>>>>>>>>
>[snip]
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:24 EDT 2009
Article: 2005813 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Demjanjuk: 29,000 murder charges. Mysterious ventilation at Krema II and III.
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sat, 4 Apr 2009 01:45:39 +0300, "Toivo Kottarainen"
 wrote:

>
>"m-weber"  
>wrote:gr5vcq$5js$1@pcls6.std.com...
>> In article <49d67f8e@news.x-privat.org>,
>> ZuLu  <""zulu\"@cool rabbits.com"> wrote:
>>
>>
>> The holes are there:
>>
>> http://www.holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/holes/die-welt.shtml
>
>Yes. If the killers thought they could escape easy just by exploding the 
>murder scene, they were wrong. Revisionism is starting to crumble.

On the contrary, it is the holocaust™ fable that had retreated into
darkest Poland, that is now in difficulties even there.

>
>Remembrance. Awareness. Responsibility
>
>Topi
>
>To get to know more about the true history of the Auschwitz camp visit
>http://en.auschwitz.org.pl/m/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=570&Itemid=29 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:25 EDT 2009
Article: 2005815 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jesus tried to warn us about the Jews -"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lust of your father ye will do."
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Fri, 3 Apr 2009 01:29:31 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:cc6at4ld09m0rjjtdd3q35hhieqoogdlni@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 1 Apr 2009 15:22:10 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>news:1qq4t41c7o2r9n0v9h33uph60bvnh8gmrf@4ax.com...
>>>> On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 09:32:48 +0100, "Mavisbeacon"
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"B.H. Cramer"  wrote in message
>>>>>news:CsmdnZPaZOVxpl7UnZ2dnVY3go2dnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>>[snip]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jesus was a Jew himself.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Are you sure about that?  You can prove that?
>>>>>>
>>>>>The historicity of Jesus is an established field of research.
>>>>>But if anyone believes in Jesus Christ existing in the past then it is
>>>>>ludicrous to believe he was NOT a Jew.
>>>>>If one is claiming that Jesus Christ never existed then claiming he was 
>>>>>or
>>>>>was not a Jew is pointless since one assigning an attribute to something
>>>>>which does not exist - a bit like saying the dragon was BLUE. It is
>>>>>pointless to argue about whether they are blue red or yellow if your 
>>>>>main
>>>>>point is that dragons never existed.
>>>>>
>>>>>As it happens though the historicity of Jesus is as established (or
>>>>>probably
>>>>>more established) as say Alexander the Great for example.
>>>>
>>>> Actually no, since lots of people saw or experienced Alexander the
>>>> Great,
>>>
>>>Really?
>>>And your evidence is?
>>>Lots of people also saw and experienced Jesus by the way.
>>
>> Nonsense.
>
>
>With few exceptions (such as Robert M. Price), virtually all scholars in the 
>fields of biblical studies

That is the whole point, Mavis. The scholars are "biblical scholars"
and sure, there are lots of scriptural references to Jesus. There are
zero historical references to his existence outside of scripture. Not
even the court records of the Roman governors in the Middle East have
any reference, and they really should if he were a real person.

> and history agree that Jesus was a Jewish teacher 
>from Galilee who was regarded as a healer, was baptized by John the Baptist, 
>was accused of sedition against the Roman Empire, and on the orders of Roman 
>Governor Pontius Pilate was sentenced to death by crucifixion.
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus
> Raymond E. Brown, The Death of the Messiah: From Gethsemane to the Grave 
>(New York: Doubleday, Anchor Bible Reference Library 1994), p. 964; D. A. 
>Carson, et al., p. 50-56; Shaye J.D. Cohen, From the Maccabees to the 
>Mishnah, Westminster Press, 1987, p. 78, 93, 105, 108; John Dominic Crossan, 
>The Historical Jesus: The Life of a Mediterranean Jewish Peasant, 
>HarperCollins, 1991, p. xi-xiii; Michael Grant, p. 34-35, 78, 166, 200; 
>Paula Fredriksen, Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews, Alfred A. Knopf, 
>1999, p. 6-7, 105-110, 232-234, 266; John P. Meier, vol. 1:68, 146, 199, 
>278, 386, 2:726; E.P. Sanders, pp. 12-13; Geza Vermes, Jesus the Jew 
>(Philadelphia: Fortress Press 1973), p. 37.; Paul L. Maier, In the Fullness 
>of Time, Kregel, 1991, pp. 1, 99, 121, 171; N. T. Wright, The Meaning of 
>Jesus: Two Visions, HarperCollins, 1998, pp. 32, 83, 100-102, 222; Ben 
>Witherington III, pp. 12-20.
>
>>Jesus wrote nothing,
>He is recorded as having writing twice in the sand before he said "let him 
>without sin cast the first stone".
>
>>built nothing,
>It would be unlikley if he was the son of a carpenter that he built nothing.
>
>>founded nothing,
>
>Eh. He is also recorded as saying "On this rock I found my Church" to Peter.
>
>>and
>> simply was not noticed by anybody other than the people who wrote the
>> scriptures.
>
>Your point being? Was "Ozymandias King of Kings" noticed? Look up "Sailing 
>to Byzanthium".
>
>By the way it is also WRONG! Many people followed him who didn't write at 
>all. Just as many people followed others in that time also. ever heard of 
>simon Maguns , simon the magician? Or Barabbas?
>
>>
>>>What evidence do you have from "lots" of people? I am aware of at most 
>>>maybe
>>>a dozen sources which can be traced to that time. and even THEY are not
>>>original extant sources. Most sources are from CENTURIES later. in fact I 
>>>am
>>>only aware of maybe ONE or TWO artifacts which date from the time of
>>>alexander which may be construed as a reference to him.
>>
>> That is all crap. There are Persian records of Alexander's exploits,
>
>Really? Can you point me to a few of them? What Persian records exist of 
>alexcander written at the time of Alexander the Great?
>Let  us just get in the ball park here. Your claim is of existing writings 
>from Persia between the years 340 and 323 BC.
>Ill bet you cant produce ONE!
>Where are these "Persian records"?
>
> > Indian records of Alexander's exploits,
>
>
>Where Cite please?
>
>>Egyptian records of
>>Alexander's exploits
>
>From before 323 BC I really think not! coite please! Can you?
>
>>and a whole trail of new Greek states and cities
>> in his wake.
>
>I don't deny the Greek Empire existed or that Greek Armies probably 
>conquered the known world and persian Empire then but where are your 
>"writings from the time" of which you claim there are "loads" in several 
>countries? Where are the Persian, Indian, Egyptian records from the time of 
>Alexander? Not copies from three centuries later but actual writings fromn 
>the time? This isnt to say that copies from three centuries later referring 
>to the now non existiant earlier work are to be dismissed altogether but 
>that is NOT you claim is it?
>
>>It is extremely unlikely that all these different people
>> living in different societies were all stoned on pot at the same time
>> and saw hallucinations that were coordinated.
>
>first of all you have produced NO EVIDENCE from any writings of the time 
>that you suggest!
>Second of all remember later when we come back to this that not alone do 
>people exist but there are miles of reams of paper and photographs and other 
>evidence of people from Italy to Russia to Holland to France who could not 
>have "co ordinated" a mass Holocaust hallucination.
>>
>> Silly statements such as yours are one of the reasons that the term
>> "Christian" has become a synonym for "drooling imbecile".
>
>I am not surprised that when you utterly FAIL to produce ANY actual evidence 
>of writings from Persia India and Egypt referring to "Alexander" the Great 
>conquering Emporor, you resort to ad hominem! Please put up or shut up and 
>provide example of the texts from 330 BC or thereabouts or just admit that 
>you can't do it!
>
>
>>>
>>>>whereas the only references to Jesus are in the Christian
>>>> scriptures,
>>>
>>>WRONG! Roman historians wrote of him and others outsede of the accepted
>>>canon of Holy scriptures.
>>
>> Show me just ONE non scriptural reference to Jesus, and you will
>> become world famous, since you will be the only person ever to have
>> produced one.
>
>Outside the accepted canon of Holy Scriptures from heretical or non 
>cononical writings:
>
>The authors whose works are contained in the New Testament sometimes quote 
>from creeds, or confessions of faith, that obviously predate their writings. 
>Scholars suppose that some of these creeds date to within a few years of 
>Jesus' death, and were developed within the Christian community in 
>Jerusalem.
> basic text is that of Oscar Cullmann, available in English in a translation 
>by J. K. S. Reid titled, The Earliest Christian Confessions (London: 
>Lutterworth, 1949)
>Jesus is a large factor in New Testament apocrypha, works excluded from the 
>canon (Gnostic texts) as it developed because they were judged not to be 
>inspired.
>
>Early Christian sources outside the New Testament also mention Jesus and 
>details of his life. Important texts from the Apostolic Fathers are, to name 
>just the most significant and ancient, Clement of Rome (c. 100),[33] 
>Ignatius of Antioch (c. 107-110),[34] and Justin Martyr.[35]
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_to_the_Trallians
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_to_the_Smyrneans
>
>Papias of Hierapolis
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papias
>
>
>Quadratus of Athens
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadratus_of_Athens
>
>
>Greco-Roman sources
>Passages relevant to Christianity in the works of four major non-Christian 
>writers of the late 1st and early 2nd centuries - Josephus, Tacitus, 
>Suetonius, and Pliny the Younger.
>Josephus' writings, which document John the Baptist, James the Just, and 
>possibly also Jesus, are of the most interest to scholars dealing with the 
>historicity of Jesus
>Josephus calls James "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ."
>http://www.ccel.org/ccel/josephus/works/files/ant-20.htm
>Tacitus, in his Annals written c. 115, mentions popular opinion about 
>Christus, without historical details
>According to Suetonius, chapter 25, there occurred in Rome, during the reign 
>of emperor Claudius (circa AD 50), "persistent disturbances ... at the 
>instigation of Chrestus"
>
>
>Thallus, of whom very little is known, wrote a history from the Trojan War 
>to, according to Eusebius, 109 BC. No work of Thallus survives. There is one 
>reference to Thallus having written about events beyond 109 BC. Julius 
>Africanus, writing c. 221, while writing about the crucifixion of Jesus, 
>mentioned Thallus. Thus:
>On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were 
>rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were 
>thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in his third book of History, calls (as 
>appears to me without reason) an eclipse of the sun.
>Julius Africanus, Extant Writings XVIII in Ante-Nicene Fathers, ed. A. 
>Roberts and J. Donaldson (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1973) vol. VI, p. 130
>Lucian, a second century Romano-Syrian satirist, who wrote in Greek, wrote:
>The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day - the distinguished 
>personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that 
>account. You see, these misguided creatures start with the general 
>conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt 
>of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and 
>then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all 
>brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of 
>Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws
>Lucian, The Death of Peregrine, 11-13 in The Works of Lucian of Samosata, 
>translated by H. W. Fowler (Oxford: Clarendon, 1949) vol. 4
>
>Celsus wrote, about 180AD, a book against the Christians, which is now only 
>known through Origen's refutation of it. Celsus apparently accused Jesus of 
>being a child and a sorcerer Morton Smith, Jesus the Magician: Charlatan or 
>Son of God? (1978) pp. 78-79.
>
>ther are Jewish records too but we ell skip them for now
>
>In The Historical Figure of Jesus, E.P. Sanders used Alexander the Great as 
>a paradigm-the available sources tell us much about Alexander's deeds, but 
>nothing about his thoughts. "The sources for Jesus are better, however, than 
>those that deal with Alexander" and "the superiority of evidence for Jesus 
>is seen when we ask what he thought."
>
>Actually I am reminded of Sanders comparison between jesus and alexander 
>now. But more so the idea of the difference between Modern and Ancient 
>history. Paul Barnett respected classicist and historian - "scholars of 
>ancient history have always recognized the 'subjectivity' factor in their 
>available sources" and "have so few sources available compared to their 
>modern counterparts that they will gladly seize whatever scraps of 
>information that are at hand." IN "Is the New Testament History?", p.1.
>
>
>>
>>> But my poiint is that people accepted Jesus
>>>existed (whether or not he was God).
>>
>> Religious folks accept all manner of stuff without evidence or proof.
>
>Which is WHY a specifically seperated the religious belief element from the 
>field of history.
>
>> That is the nature of a religion.
>
>Well as you seem to have as scant a knowledge of theology as you have of 
>historical scholarship I won't bother to go into detail on the idea of 
>"evidence" or "proof" in theological terms since you seem not to have nay of 
>your so called "evidence" of "loads" of texts about alexander from the time 
>of alexander.
>
>>
>>
>>> few say he didnt.
>>
>> The bulk of the world's people would dispute the divinity of Christ,
>> and even a few Christians.
>
>I note you seem to have ignored or not paid attention to my last comment. 
>Please try to keep up! My poiint is that people accepted Jesus
>existed (whether or not he was God). the divinity of Christ isn't the 
>subject! the historicity of Jesus is. and it is in so far as it can be 
>compared withthe historicity of alexander. But the existance of Socrates or 
>alexander in history has scant evidence in comparison to the WWII Holocaust 
>yet you sem to believe in it in spite of CLAIMING but producing NO evidence 
>for alexander!
>
>>
>>>More however seem to
>>>think the Holocaust which has loads more evidence didn't happen.
>>
>> Show me some physical evidence that will stand up to scientific
>> scrutiny for the "jumping buckets of flesh" stories, or the
>> "flame-belching crematoria".
>
>This would be like your "physical evidence" of "persian texts" or "Egyptian 
>texts" or "indian texts" would it?
>Im still waiting for them by the way.
>Where are they?
>
>
>>Obviously there actually WAS a
>> significant death toll among Jews, but that isn't quite the same thing
>> as uncritically and naively accepting every ridiculous fable that is
>> in circulation about that period.
>
>Yeah but yu accept the existance of alexander the Great and socrates in 
>spite of producing NO TEXTS whatsoever from the time of alexander or 
>Socrates. Apparently was thought by aristotle who was taught by Plato who 
>was taught by Socrates. But I dont see any evidence from you of ANYTHING 
>from Socrates. Probably because no texts ever existed! So how doyou know he 
>did? Or do you just "believe" Alexander and Socrates existed like you claim 
>religious people do? LOL!
>
>>
>>>
>>>>all written at least a century after the traditional date
>>>> of the crucifixion.
>>>
>>>Not necessarily true. some may be first century. Certainly the second
>>>century stuff refers to the earlier works of which people do not have 
>>>whole
>>>copies. But what about Alexander the Great?  The things written about him
>>>are from books at least THREE centuries later! not ONE but THREE!
>>
>> There was much material written about Alexander DURING his lifetime,
>
>REally? And you have a copy or can point to some of this can you?
>I can point to PLENTY of stuff written about Jesus DURING HIS lifetime or by 
>people who were around when he was.
>LOADS of it! Where are YOUR writings?
>
>> especially by his Persian and Greek enemies.
>
>REally? WHAT Persian and Greek writings can you point to?
>
>>Those count as
>> independent verification because they were not penned by followers and
>> lackeys of the person under consideration.
>
>How about gnostic heretics, Jews and pagan historians all of whom are in 
>addition to the Christian writers?
>How about testimony penned by Nazis who were certainly not Jewish lackeys?
>
>
>>>
>>>>There is no independent verification of Christ's
>>>> existence, whereas there are plentiful references to Alexander the
>>>> Great,
>>>
>>>Really? Suppose you produce say five or six of these "plentiful" 
>>>references.
>>
>> Good Lord, woman, go into any library and there are still plentiful
>> references to Alexander,
>
>LOL! You say you have them and the libraries are full of them but you cant 
>produce ONE from the time of alexander! What a joke! You claim the Holocaust 
>didnt happen and stuff might have been made up later but when asked to 
>produce something about alexander or Socrates you ignore the standards you 
>claim to have!
>
>Libraries are full of references to the Holocaust but somehow thisis to be 
>ignored while references to alexander aren't! HHypocritical double standards 
>is all you seem to have produced to support YOUR CLAIM about Alexander! LOL!
>
>
>>despite the campaign of the Church of Rome to
>> have all records of antiquity destroyed.
>
>LOL! How ignorant you are. where did you get this one from? You have a Di 
>vinci code version of history it seems.
>
>Now you are probably going to come up with the Library of Alexandria fire so 
>Ill put you straight on a few things first.
>
>First the Library was STLL THERE when burned down by THE MUSLIMS.
>Second when the earlier fire happened it was well past its height by about 
>150 years and much of the works had been copied.
>Third in early christian time it was under Constantinople i.e the Orthodox 
>church and NOT the Roman Church!
>
>>
>>>Ill bet you cant produce one because I have studied the field
>>
>> If that is the case, then it wasn't much of an educational
>> institution.
>
>I didnt say I attended any educational institution did I? nor did I claim 
>any qualification . that isnt to say I dont have qualifications. I said I 
>personally studied this historicity of Jesus and Alexander field and was 
>surprised at the dearth of writings on alexander. As I stated ther is to my 
>knowledge only ONE partial fragment of something from persia which MAY refer 
>(does not use the name Alexander)  to Alexander. There are not to my 
>knowledge libraries of writings from the time. there are even scant copies 
>of later writings referring to earlier now lost books. but what I claim isnt 
>the subject . YOUR CLAIM about loads of writings about alexander from the 
>time of alexander is the subject. so where are they?
>
>LOL! You cant produce even ONE!
>
>>
>>> and I expect
>>>you wont find a SINGLE reference! go on produce five of these "plenty" can
>>>you?
>>>
>>>>especially since Alexander overthrew a lot of existing states
>>>> and founded a number of cities.
>>>
>>>Did he? and you know that because? You seem to believe it without seeing 
>>>ANY
>>>evidence! Yet whenh it comes to the holocaust you doubt all the loads of
>>>evidence. why dont you apply even a tiny amount of that doubt for 
>>>Alexander
>>>for whom you have seen no extant evidence?
>>>
>>>Mind you all the more reason to be amazed at the son of a Carpenter being
>>>remembered MORE then and written MORE about than the Greatest General in
>>>history and the conquerer of the world at the time!
>>
>> Most of the Bible stories come under the heading of fables,
>
>I was not referring only to Bible stories. I have provided you with non 
>Bible stories. contemporary historians and other writers writing about the 
>period foom the century after Jesus. You have not provided ONE reference of 
>your loads of Persian Indian Egyptian and Greek writings claim.
>
>>and cannot
>> be confused with history. All human religions, including yours,
>> consist of fables and legends. They all have the same validity.
>
>Nope they dont. all history is an interpretation. But we can use several 
>sources to link certain events together and distill out the likely history. 
>But yuy have not provided several sources for alexander . You have not 
>provided ONE! Yet you claim Alexander existed ? So why dont you apply the 
>same reasoning to the Holocaust? Why the double standards?
>
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:26 EDT 2009
Article: 2005817 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: not to debate a holo denier
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On Fri, 3 Apr 2009 11:15:37 +0200, "Heinrich" 
wrote:

> spoke by telephone today to the person who answered the line when I asked 
>for the Dir of Research. I believe it is Bret Brietback or some name very 
>close to that.
>
>I directed my questions to Treblinka and specifiically, where are all the 
>burnt bodies, estimated BY HIM, to be 850,000- 900,000.
>
>I was told they are bascially scattered all over the place. In fact, if you 
>go there, I was told, you can just put your hand into the soil and pull up 
>bones! WTF, is this guy for real.
>
>I asked how was it the Germans could burn 850,000 ( 3000 per day) bodies in 
>temps that sometimes came close to -30 F and without wood or gasoline or 
>cremation ovens.
>
>
>Mr BB told me the Germans had a method to do it, it was not easy, but they 
>pulled it off, and he suggested a book written by a lady, whose name I did 
>not record.
>
>I asked if it would have been easier if they had asked for a few ovens, and 
>he said he was not going to argue the point. It appears Treblinka was about 
>200 miles from Auschwitz, so it would not have been a huge deal to provide a 
>few.
>
>I then asked about the testimony of Abraham Bomba. A Jew who spent time in 
>Treblinka as a barber?
>I told Mr BB that Bomba is on record as saying he cut hair for the ladies 
>who were to be gassed and was one of 16 barbers in a 12x 12 room with 140 
>others.
>
>This was a bigger nut to crack for Mr BB, so he told me I should not listen 
>to the words of ONE man since so many others also have stories about 
>Treblinka. I said ,BUT he was THERE. He said time can fade memories and he 
>was not going to argue the point.
>
>I then introduced to Mr BB, my past conversations with Dr. Michael Singer, a 
>Rabbi and Holocaust professor at Notre Dame.
>
>I told Mr BB that Dr. Singer said the remains were in the nearby hills, but 
>the land near Treblinka is flat. How can you reconcile that? He said I do 
>not know Dr. Singer.
>
>My last point to him was the area around Treblinka was farms and the camp 
>was in the open without any walls to keep it secret. In fact, there was even 
>bartering in the front of the camp with locals, and the US Air Force 
>overflights show no mass graves or long lines or thousands being roasted on 
>railroad tyees. How can you explain your side when the evidence suggests 
>otherwise.
>
>Ready for this...................He said the Germans bought up huge tracts 
>of land next to Treblinka so the locals could not see what was happening 
>inside Treblinka. WTF. Yeah, I am sure that is how you keep a camp secret.
>
>Do not build walls, just buy up the land next to the camp.
>
>He then got mad and said I am not going to debate a holocaust denier and 
>hung up.
>_________________

The person you spoke to could have been olde gourd. If you challenge
the hurricane of gobbledegook, you get called names and the
conversation is terminated.  LOL


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:26 EDT 2009
Article: 2005818 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Massengrab mit 4.500 Soldaten entdeckt
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On Fri, 3 Apr 2009 19:34:14 +0300, "Toivo Kottarainen"
 wrote:

>
>"Truthseeker"  wrote:71qBl.19804$Db2.13881@edtnps83...
>> Ist ja schon ganz interessant. Immer liest man so was die deutschen 
>> gemacht haben, In Kroatien oder Jugoslawien hatten die Partisanen deutsche 
>> gefangen in einer Hölle eingemauert und verrecken lassen. Als die 
>> deutschen dieses Gebiet zurück eroberten haben sie dann die Partisanen 
>> umgebracht. man kann immer nur hören was die deutschen gemacht haben aber 
>> was die andern gemacht haben wird verschwiegen.
>> Kurt Knoll.
>>
>And what hell hell were the Germans doing there ? Were they invited? Some 
>might think they got what they deserved.

The Americans were not invited to any of the scores of countries they
have occupied either, so what is your point?

Some might also think that the partisans got what they deserved.
According to the various conventions, shooting partisans is perfectly
acceptable.

>
>Topi 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:27 EDT 2009
Article: 2005819 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Massengrab mit 4.500 Soldaten entdeckt
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Fri, 3 Apr 2009 19:57:58 +0300, "Toivo Kottarainen"
 wrote:

>
>"Bertram.Zetzsche"  wrote gr5e7i$h4c$1@aioe.org...
>>
>> "Toivo Kottarainen"  schrieb
>>
>>> And what hell hell were the Germans doing there ?
>>
>> The same like the US and GB in all over the world!
>Yes but they are not crying afterwards how maltreated they were.

You've got to be kidding! There are no whiners like American whiners.

>I once saw 
>a documentary filmed in late nineties in Volgograd. A group of German 
>tourists wanted to know why there wasn´t a memorial for the fallen german 
>soldiers. The Russian guide was about to faint. I can hardly imagine a 
>bigger insult to the local inhabitants.

The Russians make any German military units look like Sunday school
pupils. 

>
>Topi 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:27 EDT 2009
Article: 2005820 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Massengrab mit 4.500 Soldaten entdeckt
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Fri, 03 Apr 2009 17:27:52 GMT, "Truthseeker" 
wrote:

>An educated brain compares both sites and I am not so sure if your brain 
>works at all.

Indeed! Toivo is obviously an allied apologist, so for him, all allied
crimes are either excusable or understandable.

>Kurt Knoll.
>
>"Toivo Kottarainen"  wrote in message 
>news:49d6401d$0$3480$9b536df3@news.fv.fi...
>>
>> "Bertram.Zetzsche"  wrote 
>> gr5e7i$h4c$1@aioe.org...
>>>
>>> "Toivo Kottarainen"  schrieb
>>>
>>>> And what hell hell were the Germans doing there ?
>>>
>>> The same like the US and GB in all over the world!
>> Yes but they are not crying afterwards how maltreated they were. I once 
>> saw a documentary filmed in late nineties in Volgograd. A group of German 
>> tourists wanted to know why there wasn´t a memorial for the fallen german 
>> soldiers. The Russian guide was about to faint. I can hardly imagine a 
>> bigger insult to the local inhabitants.
>>
>> Topi
>> 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:28 EDT 2009
Article: 2005821 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Massengrab mit 4.500 Soldaten entdeckt
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Fri, 03 Apr 2009 19:44:32 +0200, "T. Fink"  wrote:

>Truthseeker wrote:
>> An educated brain compares both sites and I am not so sure if your brain 
>> works at all.
>> Kurt Knoll.
>
>Knoll, you are really the last person that should use the word "educated".
>
>Cheers
>
>Torsten

Torsten, Churchill was a demented war-lover who helped launch both WW1
and WW2, destroying the British Empire in the process. Destroying the
British Empire was probably his one valuable achievement.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:28 EDT 2009
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Massengrab mit 4.500 Soldaten entdeckt
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On Fri, 3 Apr 2009 23:22:44 +0300, "Toivo Kottarainen"
 wrote:

>
>"Truthseeker"  wrotexErBl.21309$PH1.8475@edtnps82...
>> If you would have more brain you could figure it out. Not just the Germans 
>> but also the Americans , British and Russian did have the principle to cut 
>> of the supply of raw material for the enemies. A typical example her is 
>> Norway. The British and Germans did the same thing but it was the British 
>> who cam late and then did return. The we have the supply of Oil which both 
>> the German needed was in Africa. And the fight was not about conquering 
>> Africa but to stop the other site from getting it. Politics is like a 
>> religion and a lot of people can be brain washed with it. In this sense 
>> hallelujah fuckers are no different then people that believe only in one 
>> sited politics.
>> Kurt Knoll.
>>
>Lebenraum is it? Did the German people really need moore land? Was it 
>somebodys elses land? Oil? Was it somebodys elses oil? Till 1941 the Reich 
>had a deal with Soviet Union to get wheat and fuel as much it wanted. The 
>usual way to get raw materials is to buy them, not to conquer those lands 
>and steel  them.. And what has Norway to do with it, in those days they 
>producded nothingh but cod.

Toivo, the British were on their way to violate Norway's neutrality
but were pre-empted by a German naval force just a few hours earlier.
Neither action had anything to do with cod, as you ridiculously
suggest, but with the iron ore rail link that goes from the mines in
Sweden to the Norwegian port of Narvik. 

>
>It was crazy Hitlers paranaid idea to attac all around him not to get anyone 
>ahead of him. It had been better without the Nazis as we can see now. How 
>rich, mighgty, prosperous, united and wellbeing Deutchland we had seen 
>without the disaster of the Nazi era and without the war.
>
>Topi 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:28 EDT 2009
Article: 2005823 of alt.revisionism
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Massengrab mit 4.500 Soldaten entdeckt
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On Fri, 3 Apr 2009 14:19:03 -0700 (PDT), "Bent Attorney Esq."
 wrote:

>On Apr 3, 12:34 pm, "Toivo Kottarainen" 
>wrote:
>> "Truthseeker"  wrote:71qBl.19804$Db2.13881@edtnps83...
>> > Ist ja schon ganz interessant. Immer liest man so was die deutschen
>> > gemacht haben, In Kroatien oder Jugoslawien hatten die Partisanen deutsche
>> > gefangen in einer Hölle eingemauert und verrecken lassen. Als die
>> > deutschen dieses Gebiet zurück eroberten haben sie dann die Partisanen
>> > umgebracht. man kann immer nur hören was die deutschen gemacht haben aber
>> > was die andern gemacht haben wird verschwiegen.
>> > Kurt Knoll.
>>
>> And what hell hell were the Germans doing there ? Were they invited? Some
>> might think they got what they deserved.
>>
>> Topi
>
>Do you think that German troops should have been torture/killed?  I've
>also heard that German troops were planted in the ground (in
>Yugoslavia) and then a plow ran over them; their heads were sticking
>out.  If you OK that atrocity or any atrocities against German troops,
>then you OK all atrocities.  Why should one set of atrocities be OK,
>and not another?

Apologists for allied crimes tend to be two-faced. If something is
done by Germans, it is a crime, but similar things done by the allies
are perfectly acceptable, by definition.



From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:29 EDT 2009
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Subject: Re: Massengrab mit 4.500 Soldaten entdeckt
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On Sat, 4 Apr 2009 01:19:38 +0300, "Toivo Kottarainen"
 wrote:

>
>"Bent Attorney Esq."  kirjoitti 
>viestissä:35a5742b-f62f-4f45-b6cb-709e0b93d55c@q16g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
>On Apr 3, 12:34 pm, "Toivo Kottarainen" 
>wrote:
>
>>
>> And what hell hell were the Germans doing there ? Were they invited? Some
>> might think they got what they deserved.
>>
>> Topi
>
>Do you think that German troops should have been torture/killed?  I've
>also heard that German troops were planted in the ground (in
>Yugoslavia) and then a plow ran over them; their heads were sticking
>out.  If you OK that atrocity or any atrocities against German troops,
>then you OK all atrocities.  Why should one set of atrocities be OK,
>and not another?
>
>I repeat: What the hell the German troups were doing out there to get killed 
>and tortured. Why didn´t they stay at home in Mannheim or in Wurttenberg or 
>where ever they came from. Instead of getting ploughed over they could have 
>got a nice family with a dozen kids, a Mercedes and a house with a garden.
>
>They were there to commit atrocities.

Nonsense. They were there to assist the Croats against the murderous
Communist Serbs.

>
>Topi 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:29 EDT 2009
Article: 2005825 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Massengrab mit 4.500 Soldaten entdeckt
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Fri, 3 Apr 2009 17:33:12 -0700 (PDT), "Bent Attorney Esq."
 wrote:

>On Apr 3, 6:19 pm, "Toivo Kottarainen" 
>wrote:
>> "Bent Attorney Esq."  kirjoitti
>> viestissä:35a5742b-f62f-4f45-b6cb-709e0b93d...@q16g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
>> On Apr 3, 12:34 pm, "Toivo Kottarainen" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > And what hell hell were the Germans doing there ? Were they invited? Some
>> > might think they got what they deserved.
>>
>> > Topi
>>
>> Do you think that German troops should have been torture/killed?  I've
>> also heard that German troops were planted in the ground (in
>> Yugoslavia) and then a plow ran over them; their heads were sticking
>> out.  If you OK that atrocity or any atrocities against German troops,
>> then you OK all atrocities.  Why should one set of atrocities be OK,
>> and not another?
>>
>> I repeat: What the hell the German troups were doing out there to get killed
>> and tortured. Why didn´t they stay at home in Mannheim or in Wurttenberg or
>> where ever they came from. Instead of getting ploughed over they could have
>> got a nice family with a dozen kids, a Mercedes and a house with a garden.
>>
>> They were there to commit atrocities.
>>
>> Topi
>
>So stop crying when your side gets tortured or killed.  If you believe
>that atrocities are OK, then you believe that atrocities are OK.  You
>obviously believe then; according to your logic; you believe that Jews
>should have been brutalized yes?  No?  Why is that different than
>honorable troops having their heads plowed?  Never mind.  You're an
>idiot; that much is clear.  And a hateful idiot to boot.

Topi has severe tunnel vision, so Serb butcheries are acceptable.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:30 EDT 2009
Article: 2005826 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Massengrab mit 4.500 Soldaten entdeckt
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On Sat, 04 Apr 2009 01:14:59 GMT, "Truthseeker" 
wrote:

>
>"Toivo Kottarainen"  wrote in message 
>news:49d68c16$0$23526$9b536df3@news.fv.fi...
>>
>> "Bent Attorney Esq."  kirjoitti 
>> viestissä:35a5742b-f62f-4f45-b6cb-709e0b93d55c@q16g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
>> On Apr 3, 12:34 pm, "Toivo Kottarainen" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> And what hell hell were the Germans doing there ? Were they invited? Some
>>> might think they got what they deserved.
>>>
>>> Topi
>>
>> Do you think that German troops should have been torture/killed?  I've
>> also heard that German troops were planted in the ground (in
>> Yugoslavia) and then a plow ran over them; their heads were sticking
>> out.  If you OK that atrocity or any atrocities against German troops,
>> then you OK all atrocities.  Why should one set of atrocities be OK,
>> and not another?
>>
>> I repeat: What the hell the German troups were doing out there to get 
>> killed and tortured. Why didn´t they stay at home in Mannheim or in 
>> Wurttenberg or where ever they came from. Instead of getting ploughed over 
>> they could have got a nice family with a dozen kids, a Mercedes and a 
>> house with a garden.
>>
>
> Beats me why are the Americans in Afghanistan and who did invite them. Why 
>is it that other nationalities have to dye to protect the Americas 
>interests.

The USA is the most warlike and aggressive country in human history.

>Kurt Knoll.
>
>> They were there to commit atrocities.
>>
>> Topi
>> 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:30 EDT 2009
Article: 2005828 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Massengrab mit 4.500 Soldaten entdeckt
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sat, 4 Apr 2009 09:45:00 +0300, "Toivo Kottarainen"
 wrote:

>
>"Truthseeker"  kirjoitti 
>viestissä:nwyBl.19876$Db2.19176@edtnps83...
>>
>> "Toivo Kottarainen"  wrote in message 
>> news:49d68c16$0$23526$9b536df3@news.fv.fi...
>>>
>>> "Bent Attorney Esq."  kirjoitti 
>>> viestissä:35a5742b-f62f-4f45-b6cb-709e0b93d55c@q16g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
>>> On Apr 3, 12:34 pm, "Toivo Kottarainen" 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> And what hell hell were the Germans doing there ? Were they invited? 
>>>> Some
>>>> might think they got what they deserved.
>>>>
>>>> Topi
>>>
>>> Do you think that German troops should have been torture/killed?  I've
>>> also heard that German troops were planted in the ground (in
>>> Yugoslavia) and then a plow ran over them; their heads were sticking
>>> out.  If you OK that atrocity or any atrocities against German troops,
>>> then you OK all atrocities.  Why should one set of atrocities be OK,
>>> and not another?
>>>
>>> I repeat: What the hell the German troups were doing out there to get 
>>> killed and tortured. Why didn´t they stay at home in Mannheim or in 
>>> Wurttenberg or where ever they came from. Instead of getting ploughed 
>>> over they could have got a nice family with a dozen kids, a Mercedes and 
>>> a house with a garden.
>>>
>>
>> Beats me why are the Americans in Afghanistan and who did invite them. Why 
>> is it that other nationalities have to dye to protect the Americas 
>> interests.
>> Kurt Knoll.
>>
>>> They were there to commit atrocities.
>>>
>>> Topi
>>>
>Even a Knollish truth is that nobody on this planet invited the Germans to 
>Yugoslavia.

Yugoslavia was an artificial Versailles-state, and it was the Croats
and Slovenes who invited Germany to assist them against the murderous
Serbs. It was the Croats and Slovenes first shot at independence from
the murderous Serbs, and for a few years they were free of the
villainous Serbs.

Slovenes and Croats eventually got their independence from the
murderous Serbs in the nineties, again with support from Germany.
Croats and Slovenes regard Germany as their friend, while the
murderous Communist Serbs regard Germany as their enemy.

Our Croatian neighbours have a big celebration every April 20 in
honour of Hitler's birthday. Even though my family is German beyond
the twentieth generation, we would never do that, but the Croatians
next door think Germans are wonderful people. I suspect that they
would think that of anybody who stomps on Serbs.







 It was a one sided aggression. There were no Yugoslavian 
>military forces in Shleswig-Holstain or in Bavaria. To get killed in 
>aggresive and violent occupations is not a merit.
>
>In the case of Afganistan there´s a resolution by the UN. The internanional 
>community want´s to end global terrorism there.
>
>To get to know me better, I oppose all violence, all war crimes, all 
>attrocities, all killings and rapes allways.
>We just should not forget.
>
>Remembrance. Awreness. Responsibility
>
>Topi 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:30 EDT 2009
Article: 2005829 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Massengrab mit 4.500 Soldaten entdeckt
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sat, 4 Apr 2009 11:57:07 +0200, "peter van haag" 
wrote:

>
>"Truthseeker"  schrieb im Newsbeitrag 
>news:71qBl.19804$Db2.13881@edtnps83...
>> Ist ja schon ganz interessant. Immer liest man so was die deutschen 
>> gemacht haben, In Kroatien oder Jugoslawien hatten die Partisanen deutsche 
>> gefangen in einer Hölle eingemauert und verrecken lassen. Als die 
>> deutschen dieses Gebiet zurück eroberten haben sie dann die Partisanen 
>> umgebracht. man kann immer nur hören was die deutschen gemacht haben aber 
>> was die andern gemacht haben wird verschwiegen.
>
>So ist das halt....man darf nicht nur Kriege beginnen....man muß sie auch 
>gewinnen.

Der zweite Weltkrieg wurde in London entworfen, nicht in Berlin.

>
>PvH


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:31 EDT 2009
Article: 2005830 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Teens Say Jews Deserved Holocaust
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sat, 4 Apr 2009 13:32:51 +0200, "Heinrich" 
wrote:

>More than 14 percent of German teenagers in a recent survey said Jews must 
>have deserved to be persecuted in the Holocaust.
>
>The Survey which was conducted by the Hanover-based Criminal Research 
>Institute, polled 44,610  German students and was called "Youth as Victims 
>and Perpetrators of Violence," also found that about one in every 20 German 
>teenage boys belongs to a far-right group. The survey found that far more 
>German boys aged 15 belong to extremists groups than to mainstream political 
>youth clubs. In some towns or cities, membership in far-right groups is as 
>high as 10 percent, while in others it is virtually non-existent.
>
>Among boys of German background, 7 percent in former East German states 
>showed clear signs of anti-Semitism and xenophobia, as opposed to 3 percent 
>in western states. The institute's director, Christian Pfeiffer suggested 
>this might be due to the decades of anti-Israel propaganda promoted in the 
>former Communist East Germany.
>
>http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1237461641507
>
>
It only takes one reading of drivel like that promulgated by the bigot
Rabbi Shmuel Derlich to turn otherwise neutral students into enemies
of Israel.

Israelis are their own worst enemies. They have managed to alienate
practically the whole planet.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:31 EDT 2009
Article: 2005904 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Demjanjuk: 29,000 murder charges
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sat, 04 Apr 2009 22:52:32 +0300, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
Holman) wrote:

>In article ,
>ebersdorf@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>> 
>> Irving's book on Dresden is consistent with the observations and
>> recollections of people who were there. 
>
>So have been the accounts of the Auschwiyz gas chambers.

That isn't quite true, since the various reports of the gas chambers
are frequently inconsistent and would be considered "hearsay" by any
modern court.

>
>> Lipstadt is just another paid
>> propagandist whose job it is to excuse or minimize allied crimes.
>
>No. Lipstadt is a professional historian miffed at David Irving's
>malpracticing mendacious poaching on her turf.

Lipstadt appears to be a single topic "historian" who is
indistinguishable from a propagandist.

>
>
>
>Regards,
>Eugene Holman


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:32 EDT 2009
Article: 2005905 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why Gun Confiscation In America Is A Bad Idea
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Sat, 04 Apr 2009 06:50:58 -0700, Klaus Schadenfreude
 wrote:

>In talk.politics.guns Tim Miller 
>wrote:
>
>>Topaz wrote:
>>> Here are parts of a speech by Dr. Joseph Goebbels,
>>
>>Say, wasn't Goebbels that lying homosexual coward that
>>killed his family before committing suicide?? 
>
>If you will recall, he had his goons do it. He didn't have the courage
>to do it himself.
>
>>WHEN are
>>you going to follow his example?
>
>Like Goebbels, he'd have to have someone else do it.

Tim Miller comes across as just another gay basher and ignorant bigot.
Why am I not surprised?


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:32 EDT 2009
Article: 2005931 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Massengrab mit 4.500 Soldaten entdeckt
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sat, 4 Apr 2009 20:15:30 +0300, "Toivo Kottarainen"
 wrote:

>
>"Bent Attorney Esq."  kirjoitti 
>viestissä:4dc5f70d-aeaa-4bbd-81a2-bbede0dc8d0c@l1g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
>On Apr 4, 10:19 am, "Toivo Kottarainen" 
>wrote:
>> "Johannes von Ebersdorf"  kirjoitti
>> viestissä:6poet4l0uv79dpgbvns0tmh8f4r4jm9...@4ax.com...
>>
>> > On Sat, 4 Apr 2009 11:57:07 +0200, "peter van haag" 
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >>"Truthseeker"  schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>> >>news:71qBl.19804$Db2.13881@edtnps83...
>> >>> Ist ja schon ganz interessant. Immer liest man so was die deutschen
>> >>> gemacht haben, In Kroatien oder Jugoslawien hatten die Partisanen
>> >>> deutsche
>> >>> gefangen in einer Hölle eingemauert und verrecken lassen. Als die
>> >>> deutschen dieses Gebiet zurück eroberten haben sie dann die Partisanen
>> >>> umgebracht. man kann immer nur hören was die deutschen gemacht haben
>> >>> aber
>> >>> was die andern gemacht haben wird verschwiegen.
>>
>> >>So ist das halt....man darf nicht nur Kriege beginnen....man muß sie 
>> >>auch
>> >>gewinnen.
>>
>> > Der zweite Weltkrieg wurde in London entworfen, nicht in Berlin.
>>
>> >>PvH
>>
>> The last sentence is not true, either.
>> But I´m sorry if I personallu offended You. Maybe some of your relatives
>> died in those mountains.
>> The world politics and war is not a football game. So what was the point 
>> in
>> occupying that territory, of any territories. Your explenation "as the big
>> boys did that before" is childish.
>> Topi
>
>>>>>>And your support of plowing Germans is crazy insane.
>
>
>OK. Let´s play it that way.
>
>If a German soldier came to my door, tried to steel my cows and last 
>potatos, rape my wife and kill my sons, yes I would kill him and plough his 
>body to the ground. I could not ever allow to erect a memorial in his 
>honour.

German soldiers don't do any of those things, at least not legally,
quite unlike allied soldiers where such behaviour is encouraged and
rewarded.

The German military code is quite harsh on people who do any of the
actions you describe in your diatribe, but it was par for the course
for Soviet soldateska.

>
>If the killing of German brutal beast in that case is wrong, crazy and 
>insane in Your mind, we cannot live in this same planet.

There is nothing brutal or beastly about German military personnel.
You are simply an ignorant bigot.
>
>Topi 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:32 EDT 2009
Article: 2005932 of alt.revisionism
Path: border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-in-01.newsfeed.easynews.com!easynews!core-easynews-01!easynews.com!en-nntp-06.dc1.easynews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Massengrab mit 4.500 Soldaten entdeckt
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sat, 4 Apr 2009 11:21:02 -0700 (PDT), "Bent Attorney Esq."
 wrote:

>On Apr 4, 1:15 pm, "Toivo Kottarainen" 
>wrote:
>> "Bent Attorney Esq."  kirjoitti
>> viestissä:4dc5f70d-aeaa-4bbd-81a2-bbede0dc8...@l1g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
>> On Apr 4, 10:19 am, "Toivo Kottarainen" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > "Johannes von Ebersdorf"  kirjoitti
>> > viestissä:6poet4l0uv79dpgbvns0tmh8f4r4jm9...@4ax.com...
>>
>> > > On Sat, 4 Apr 2009 11:57:07 +0200, "peter van haag" 
>> > > wrote:
>>
>> > >>"Truthseeker"  schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>> > >>news:71qBl.19804$Db2.13881@edtnps83...
>> > >>> Ist ja schon ganz interessant. Immer liest man so was die deutschen
>> > >>> gemacht haben, In Kroatien oder Jugoslawien hatten die Partisanen
>> > >>> deutsche
>> > >>> gefangen in einer Hölle eingemauert und verrecken lassen. Als die
>> > >>> deutschen dieses Gebiet zurück eroberten haben sie dann die Partisanen
>> > >>> umgebracht. man kann immer nur hören was die deutschen gemacht haben
>> > >>> aber
>> > >>> was die andern gemacht haben wird verschwiegen.
>>
>> > >>So ist das halt....man darf nicht nur Kriege beginnen....man muß sie
>> > >>auch
>> > >>gewinnen.
>>
>> > > Der zweite Weltkrieg wurde in London entworfen, nicht in Berlin.
>>
>> > >>PvH
>>
>> > The last sentence is not true, either.
>> > But I´m sorry if I personallu offended You. Maybe some of your relatives
>> > died in those mountains.
>> > The world politics and war is not a football game. So what was the point
>> > in
>> > occupying that territory, of any territories. Your explenation "as the big
>> > boys did that before" is childish.
>> > Topi
>> >>>>>And your support of plowing Germans is crazy insane.
>>
>> OK. Let´s play it that way.
>>
>> If a German soldier came to my door, tried to steel my cows and last
>> potatos, rape my wife and kill my sons, yes I would kill him and plough his
>> body to the ground. I could not ever allow to erect a memorial in his
>> honour.
>>
>> If the killing of German brutal beast in that case is wrong, crazy and
>> insane in Your mind, we cannot live in this same planet.
>>
>> Topi
>
>What if you were an Iraqi and a US soldier tried the same thing...?
>What if you were a German and a US soldier tried the same thing...?
>What if you were a Vietnamese and a US soldier tried the same
>thing...?
>What if you were a Pole and a Soviet tried the same thing...?
>What if you were a Chin and Ghengis tried the same thing...?
>What if you were a Nicaraguan peasant and the US(+ United Fruit) tried
>the same thing...?
>What if you were an Afghani and England tried the same thing...?
>What if you were an Inca and the Spaniards tried the same thing...?
>or do you just hate Krauts?!!!
>WHAT IF YOU WERE A GERMAN AND A SERB TRIED THE SAME THING...?
>WHAT IF YOU WERE A GERMAN AND A SOVIET TRIED THE SAME THING...?
>What if you were a Jap and the US tried the same thing...?
>or do you just hate Krauts???!!!
>Are not these listed above brutal beasts, or is it just the Kraut
>monster?
>And of course I could go on and on...
>Or is it just the Kraut what's got your head fucked up?

Topi has a severe case of irrational Germanophobia.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:33 EDT 2009
Article: 2005936 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Demjanjuk: 29,000 murder charges
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On Sat, 04 Apr 2009 20:42:57 GMT, "Truthseeker" 
wrote:

>Just like the gas bellets that came thru the shower heads or thru the roof 
>with another floor between.

Pellets through the shower heads would have been an interesting
phenomenon.  LOL

>Kurt Knoll.
>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:chfft4hhr6rt900pfqhu55a6iecme1doni@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 04 Apr 2009 22:52:32 +0300, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
>> Holman) wrote:
>>
>>>In article ,
>>>ebersdorf@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Irving's book on Dresden is consistent with the observations and
>>>> recollections of people who were there.
>>>
>>>So have been the accounts of the Auschwiyz gas chambers.
>>
>> That isn't quite true, since the various reports of the gas chambers
>> are frequently inconsistent and would be considered "hearsay" by any
>> modern court.
>>
>>>
>>>> Lipstadt is just another paid
>>>> propagandist whose job it is to excuse or minimize allied crimes.
>>>
>>>No. Lipstadt is a professional historian miffed at David Irving's
>>>malpracticing mendacious poaching on her turf.
>>
>> Lipstadt appears to be a single topic "historian" who is
>> indistinguishable from a propagandist.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>Eugene Holman 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:33 EDT 2009
Article: 2006072 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Demjanjuk: 29,000 murder charges
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sun, 05 Apr 2009 13:02:37 -0400, Gord McFee 
wrote:

>On 4/4/2009 8:39 AM, Johannes von Ebersdorf wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 02 Apr 2009 21:53:47 -0400, Gord McFee 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>> On 3/31/2009 2:24 PM, Johannes von Ebersdorf wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On Mon, 30 Mar 2009 21:03:33 -0400, Gord McFee 
>>>>  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> On 3/30/2009 9:00 AM, Johannes von Ebersdorf wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Sat, 28 Mar 2009 21:45:27 -0400, Gord McFee 
>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Sat, 28 Mar 2009 11:54:04 -0400, in 
>>>>>>> , Johannes von
>>>>>>>  Ebersdorf  wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Sat, 28 Mar 2009 09:40:32 -0400, Gord McFee 
>>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> The language used in the Wannsee Protocol is dry, 
>>>>>>>>>>> arcane bureaucratic German, yes.  I have never said
>>>>>>>>>>>  otherwise. Ben, you know I am a bureaucrat.  I am
>>>>>>>>>>>  the first to admit that bureaucrats do not write 
>>>>>>>>>>> beautiful language.
>>>>>>>>>> Having seen photocopies of the Wannsee Protocols, I 
>>>>>>>>>> would say that dry arcane German is the least of 
>>>>>>>>>> their problems. It seems, like in so many other 
>>>>>>>>>> cases, that the originals are nowhere to be found and
>>>>>>>>>>  all that remains are these allied "official" copies
>>>>>>>>>>  of a copy that were clearly typed on an American 
>>>>>>>>>> typewriter.
>>>>>>>>> That is simply invention on your part.
>>>>>>>> I've seen quite a few obvious forgeries. The only 
>>>>>>>> invention was on the part of the Americans/British who 
>>>>>>>> created the documents.
>>>>>>> Then I would be interested in your take on the Wannsee 
>>>>>>> Protokoll original here:
>>>>>> This material does appear to be written on a German 
>>>>>> typewriter, but then it didn't surface until 1947, so 
>>>>>> Americans getting hold of German typewriters would have been
>>>>>>  no problem. Anything that was ever in allied hands is 
>>>>>> suspect, and cannot simply be taken at face value. The paper
>>>>>>  would need to be analyzed to make sure that it is consistent
>>>>>>  with the ministry allegedly involved, the typewriter ink 
>>>>>> would need chemical analysis to make sure that it was of 
>>>>>> German origin, and numerous other physical aspects.
>>>>> I guess I should have expected something like that.  First you 
>>>>> claim the document were not written by a German speaking 
>>>>> person.
>>>> I didn't say anything about it being written by a German-speaking
>>>>  person. That was your straw man. The allies surely had some 
>>>> German-speaking employees capable of putting something like this
>>>>  together, but that hardly proves that the item is genuine or
>>>> even significant.
>>>> 
>>>> The infamous Zimmermann telegraph of WW1 was a forgery created in
>>>>  Toronto, and that only become public more than half a century 
>>>> after the fact.
>>>> 
>>>> I really don't trust any documents that have ever been in allied
>>>>  hands. They have a long, long history of fraud.
>>> Very convenient, since all the captured documents were in some 
>>> allied hands at some point, so you neatly dismiss every single Nazi
>>>  document. The Führer would be proud.
>>> 
>>> By the way, can you provide a scintilla of support fr your fairy 
>>> tale that the Zimmerman telegram was fake?
>>> 
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimmermann_Telegram
>>> 
>>> Of course you can't.
>> 
>> Take your whine to the Toronto Star. They published a story a few 
>> years ago indicating that the so-called Zimmermann telegram was 
>> fabricated in Toronto.
>> 
>> Besides, no German foreign minister would ever send such a thing by 
>> telegram, a medium that is easily intercepted. With that content, the
>>  message would have been delivered personally and written in code.
>> 
>> Your continuous demands for "proof" are getting sillier by the day. I
>>  don't keep a running log of everything I read just in case I 
>> encounter the McFee jackass on usenet some future year.
>
>In other words, you cannot provide a scintilla of support for your
>fairytale that the Zimmerman telegram was fake.

Much as I hate to do so, I have to admit that the only references I
found on the web tend to support the version of this story I learned
as a youngster in secondary school. The British periodically release
archive documents that overturn previously accepted stories, an
example being the Lusitania incident. It seems that the German
submarine captain in that case was correct, and everything we learned
on the topic in high school was incorrect.

For the time being, I concede your Zimmermann position since I simply
cannot recall where I read the forgery comment or what evidence was
presented with it.

>
>Thank you.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:34 EDT 2009
Article: 2006075 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Demjanjuk: 29,000 murder charges
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Sun, 05 Apr 2009 13:05:11 -0400, Gord McFee 
wrote:

>On 4/4/2009 8:44 AM, Johannes von Ebersdorf wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 03 Apr 2009 07:20:44 +0300, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
>>  Holman) wrote:
>> 
>>> In article , 
>>> ebersdorf@gmail.com wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On Wed, 01 Apr 2009 00:49:41 +0300, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi 
>>>> (Eugene Holman) wrote:
>>>> 
>>> 
>>>>> Your sentence doesn't make sense. Deborah Lipstadt was not the 
>>>>> one resorting to use of the courts in this particular case.
>>>> Nobody said she was. Irving was trying to get the woman off his 
>>>> back with her character assassination techniques,...
>>> How was Deborah Lipstadt using "character assassination 
>>> techniques"? She wrote that he was a dishonest historian, something
>>>  that had been known since David Irving's lost libel suit and the 
>>> fallout from his book about the bombing of Dresden,
>> 
>> Irving's book on Dresden is consistent with the observations and 
>> recollections of people who were there. Lipstadt is just another paid
>>  propagandist whose job it is to excuse or minimize allied crimes.
>
>Actually, as was proven in court, Irving's book on Dresden is not
>consistent with the observations and recollections of people who were
>there, and certainly not with the facts.

I personally know people who were there and I find them much more
credible than some allied kangaroo court with the assignment to
minimize and downplay allied war crimes. Court statements do not
necessarily equate to truth. Judges tend to rule in a manner
consistent with the wishes of the people who hired them and who pay
them. The same thing goes for you. I fully expect you to excuse allied
war crimes because that is your assignment, but I'm under no
obligation to believe you, and I basically don't.

>
>[...]


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:34 EDT 2009
Article: 2006077 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: freed from holocaust denial
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Sun, 5 Apr 2009 15:05:24 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
wrote:

>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:ds5at45sifa63mni4nf4aet17jc1fq6okr@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 18:57:17 -0700 (PDT), Michael Ejercito
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>On Mar 31, 11:07 am, Johannes von Ebersdorf 
>>>wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 30 Mar 2009 08:20:38 -0700 (PDT), Michael Ejercito
>>>>
>>>>  wrote:
>>>> >On Mar 27, 10:14 pm, "B.H. Cramer"  wrote:
>>>> >> "Heinrich"  wrote in message
>>>>
>>>> >>news:735t7sFrf6pcU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>
>>>> >> > Greek court officials said judges overturned Friday a 
>>>> >> > far-rightist's
>>>> >> > conviction for inciting racial hatred with a book that denies the
>>>> >> > Holocaust took place.
>>>>
>>>> >> That is splendid news.
>>>>
>>>> >> Now to overturn the convictions and sentences of Germar Rudolf, Ernst
>>>> >> Zundel, Stolz et al.
>>>> > On what basis?
>>>>
>>>> Political "propaganda offences" have no place in a democracy.
>>>>
>>>   Yes, but the laws would have to be changed first, followed with
>>>pardons.
>>>
>>>   Judges would not be able to overturn those convictions on there
>>>own; there is no legal protection of freedom of speech in those
>>>places.
>>
>> In Germany, supposedly there actually IS freedom of speech and freedom
>> of opinion, so the propaganda laws are probably unconstitutional,
>
>As to "probably unconstitiutional", you could try actually reading the 
>constitution.
>
>Article 5, Paragraph 2 of the Basic Law details the limitations on speech 
>and expression:
>
>"These rights shall find their limits in the provisions of general laws, in 
>provisions for the protection of young persons, and in the right to personal 
>honor. "

All the basic rights of Germans are qualified by the ending phrase "or
as provided otherwise by law." In other words, Germans have no rights
at all, or at least not significantly more than those they enjoyed
under the constitution in place when Hitler was in power where the
list of basic universal rights was also qualified by "unless we
legislate otherwise.".

>
>There are at least twelve defined sections in the Criminal Code which, 
>drawing their constitutional authority from Article 5, Paragraph 2, limit 
>speech in one way or another.
>
>If you wish to show how these constitutionally-authorized laws are 
>unconstitutional, now would be the time.   You can start with citing the
>
>> but
>> it would be very difficult for any lawyer to challenge them in court
>> without himself falling victim to the legislation.
>
>Perhaps you just don't know any *good* lawyers.
>
>Or perhaps good lawyers don't want anything to do with neo-Nazis.
>
>Perhaps it's like more pedophiles trying to find good lawyers.
>
>> That is exactly why
>> the aforementioned defendants didn't get much legal representation
>> because the lawyers representing them do so at great personal risk.
>> Several lawyers have found themselves in the prisoner's docket for
>> something they said trying to defend their clients.
>
>It's for rather more than "something they said".
>
>Playing coy won't work here.
>
>> In Canada, lawyers such as Douglas Christie do not have to fear court
>> reprisals for defending their clients.
>
>Lawyers in Canada aren't allowed to grandstand either.   Judges do not 
>appreciate that kind of behaviour.
>
>This isn't the difference, but I'm not suprised the subtle difference 
>between defending a person and committing the same act escapes you.
>
>Stolz, for example, was plainly *not* trying to defend EZ on his charges, 
>she was trying to make the court a platform for dissemination of her own 
>views.   The court declined permssion for this, as all other real courts do.
>
>-pk
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:34 EDT 2009
Article: 2006080 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Teens Say Jews Deserved Holocaust
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sun, 5 Apr 2009 07:21:52 +0200, "Heinrich" 
wrote:

>
>"I'll Always Be 04/04/09"  schreef in bericht 
>news:aussies_suck-FF6EFE.11260204042009@aries.weretis.net...
>> In article
>> <73our3Fv0c9fU1@mid.individual.net>,
>> "Heinrich" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> More than 14 percent of German teenagers in a recent survey said Jews 
>>> must
>>> have deserved to be persecuted in the Holocaust.
>>>
>>> The Survey which was conducted by the Hanover-based Criminal Research
>>> Institute, polled 44,610  German students and was called "Youth as 
>>> Victims
>>> and Perpetrators of Violence," also found that about one in every 20 
>>> German
>>> teenage boys belongs to a far-right group. The survey found that far more
>>> German boys aged 15 belong to extremists groups than to mainstream 
>>> political
>>> youth clubs. In some towns or cities, membership in far-right groups is 
>>> as
>>> high as 10 percent, while in others it is virtually non-existent.
>>>
>>> Among boys of German background, 7 percent in former East German states
>>> showed clear signs of anti-Semitism and xenophobia, as opposed to 3 
>>> percent
>>> in western states. The institute's director, Christian Pfeiffer suggested
>>> this might be due to the decades of anti-Israel propaganda promoted in 
>>> the
>>> former Communist East Germany.
>>>
>>> http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&c
>>> id=1237461641507
>>
>> Amazing. 86% of german teenagers must
>> have felt that the german people were
>> barbarians.

Actually, for most young people in Germany the whole topic is
completely uninteresting and irrelevant. The 14% mentioned above are
at one end of the political spectrum, and a similar percentage is at
the opposite end (Communist, extreme left) of the political spectrum
but the vast bulk of the public don't give a flying shit about the
whole issue.

>>
>> Thanks heinie
>
>your welcome my friend but tell me why do you hte germans so much? 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:35 EDT 2009
Article: 2006082 of alt.revisionism
Path: border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-in-01.newsfeed.easynews.com!easynews!core-easynews-01!easynews.com!en-nntp-09.dc1.easynews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz-Birkenau crematoriums: photographs
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sun, 5 Apr 2009 08:41:56 -0700 (PDT), StarDust 
wrote:

>On Apr 4, 11:12 pm, RJ11  wrote:
>>    Two of the Birkenau crematoriums:http://www.holocaust-history.org/~dkeren/documents/auschwitz/krema3.s...http://www.holocaust-history.org/~dkeren/documents/auschwitz/krema4.s...
>>
>>    Cremation furnaces:http://www.holocaust-history.org/~dkeren/documents/auschwitz/furnaces...
>>
>> RJ.
>
>
>The cremation occurs in a crematory, consisting of one or more
>cremator furnaces or cremation retorts for the ashes. A cremator is an
>industrial furnace capable of generating temperatures of 870–980°C
>(1600–1800°F) to ensure disintegration of the corpse. A crematorium
>may be part of chapel or a funeral home, or part of an independent
>facility or a service offered by a cemetery.
>The body burns in the cremator.
>
>Modern cremator fuels include natural gas and propane. However, coal
>and coke were used until the early 1960s.
>A cremation furnace is not designed to cremate more than one body at a
>time, something that is illegal in many countries, including the U.S.
>Exceptions are sometimes made in extreme cases, such as of a deceased
>mother and her still-born child or still-born twins.
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cremation#Modern_cremation_process

Apparently the crematoria of Topf und Söhne were supernatural and
exempt from the laws of physics and chemistry, at least if one takes
some of the period fables seriously. Corpses and carcasses don't burn
on their own, since they consist mainly of water. It takes tremendous
amounts of external fuel to reduce a corpse to mineral ash, and even a
modern high-efficiency crematorium requires about an hour to do that
for a single corpse.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:35 EDT 2009
Article: 2006083 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Auschwitz-Birkenau crematoriums: photographs
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sun, 05 Apr 2009 20:54:31 +0200, ZuLu  wrote:

>StarDust escribió:
>> On Apr 4, 11:12 pm, RJ11  wrote:
>>>    Two of the Birkenau crematoriums:http://www.holocaust-history.org/~dkeren/documents/auschwitz/krema3.s...http://www.holocaust-history.org/~dkeren/documents/auschwitz/krema4.s...
>>>
>>>    Cremation furnaces:http://www.holocaust-history.org/~dkeren/documents/auschwitz/furnaces...
>>>
>>> RJ.
>> 
>> 
>> The cremation occurs in a crematory, consisting of one or more
>> cremator furnaces or cremation retorts for the ashes. A cremator is an
>> industrial furnace capable of generating temperatures of 870–980°C
>> (1600–1800°F) to ensure disintegration of the corpse. A crematorium
>> may be part of chapel or a funeral home, or part of an independent
>> facility or a service offered by a cemetery.
>> The body burns in the cremator.
>> 
>> Modern cremator fuels include natural gas and propane. However, coal
>> and coke were used until the early 1960s.
>> A cremation furnace is not designed to cremate more than one body at a
>> time, something that is illegal in many countries, including the U.S.
>> Exceptions are sometimes made in extreme cases, such as of a deceased
>> mother and her still-born child or still-born twins.
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cremation#Modern_cremation_process
>
>Those furnaces were based on civilian models, nothing specific to criminal purpose.
>On the opposite there were not properly model to industrial burning because, as being
>civilian, they were tiny muffles planned to burn corpses by unit and to recuperate 
>ashes for the family on tray placed under the burning platform.
>
>Since the typhus epidemics occurrence after 1942, all corpses might be cremated at 
>the camps as a part of mandatory prophylactic measures.
>
>The same model of furnaces provided mostly by the manufacturers Topf and Kori can be 
>found at Dachau, Oranienburg, Gusen, Buchenwald and other main camps like I stated on 
>my previous post.

The period fables leave the impression that corpses were consumed in a
few minutes at most, and that pretty much implied that the units
supplied by Topf u. Söhne were magical and totally exempt from the
laws of physics and chemistry.

Crematoria don't, for example, have flames belching out the of the
chimneys since coke doesn't burn with a flame for starters, and the
corpse doesn't burn on its own either. The consumption of the corpse
is endothermic and requires a continuous supply of external fuel.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:35 EDT 2009
Article: 2006167 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Demjanjuk: 29,000 murder charges
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On Sun, 05 Apr 2009 17:18:14 -0400, Gord McFee 
wrote:

>On Sat, 04 Apr 2009 08:40:16 -0400, in
>, Johannes von Ebersdorf
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 02 Apr 2009 21:57:54 -0400, Gord McFee 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> >On 3/31/2009 2:27 PM, Johannes von Ebersdorf wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Mon, 30 Mar 2009 21:04:47 -0400, Gord McFee 
>> >> wrote:
>> >> 
>> >>> On 3/30/2009 9:09 AM, Johannes von Ebersdorf wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> On Sat, 28 Mar 2009 21:46:52 -0400, Gord McFee
>> >>>>  wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> On Sat, 28 Mar 2009 23:04:36 -0000, in 
>> >>>>> <8c163$49ceaf9a$596480f8$25997@news.upc.ie>, "Mavisbeacon" 
>> >>>>>  wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> [...]
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> And for his next trick, Cramer will claim that original gospels
>> >>>>>> don't exiat and no original copies of Homer, or of the writings
>> >>>>>> of Plato and Aristotle or of the teachings of Socrates. So based
>> >>>>>> on that he will argue that Jesus didnt exist or alexander the
>> >>>>>> Great or socrates or the Normans or anything else in history for
>> >>>>>> which he has not seen the original copies of anything written by
>> >>>>>> them.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> do people not find it strange that he seems only to douby the
>> >>>>>> WWII Holocaust and not apply the same degree of doubt to things
>> >>>>>> with much less evidence?
>> >>>>> Not in the slightest.  He is a Holocaust denier and that is their 
>> >>>>> modus operandi.
>> >>>> You're being rather silly, olde gourd.
>> >>> I take it Cramer has fled the scene for a while and you are the substitute?
>> >> 
>> >> Mr. Cramer's only connection to me is that we sometimes battle the
>> >> same idiots on this newsgroup. We most likely would not see eye to eye
>> >> on many topics, but here the opponents are so fanatical, hysterical
>> >> and bigoted that somebody has to offer some opposition to their
>> >> nonsense.
>> >
>> >So you are the substitute.  Pity.
>> 
>> Gourd, if you had a brain you would be dangerous.
>
>Amazing.  Cramer, a 10th stringer, is the starter, and Johannes, a
>25th stringer, is the sub.  Man, the denier bench is a sad sight.

LOL

As I said, gourd, if you had a brain you would be dangerous.



From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:36 EDT 2009
Article: 2006168 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazi guard a free man in Austria
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On Sun, 05 Apr 2009 17:37:22 -0400, Gord McFee 
wrote:

>On Sat, 04 Apr 2009 08:50:34 -0400, in
><8olet41l48jo8gqbcjcv5d176e352ut497@4ax.com>, Johannes von Ebersdorf
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 02 Apr 2009 22:21:13 -0400, Gord McFee 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> >On 4/2/2009 3:48 PM, Johannes von Ebersdorf wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Wed, 1 Apr 2009 09:10:26 -0700 (PDT), Michael Ejercito
>> >>  wrote:
>> >> 
>> >>> On Mar 30, 5:31 am, Johannes von Ebersdorf 
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>> On Sat, 28 Mar 2009 11:50:09 -0700 (PDT),Michael Ejercito
>> >>>>
>> >>>>  wrote:
>> >>>>> On Mar 28, 5:57 am, Topaz  wrote:
>> >>>>>> by James Buchanan
>> >>>>>> Let's say the Germans merely removed the Jews from positions of
>> >>>>>> political power and banned them from the legal profession.
>> >>>>>   How were things in Germany on May 1, 1945?
>> >>>> What is special about May 1?
>> >>>   It was the day after Hitler killed himself.
>> >> 
>> >> The war continued unabated, and it was the German armed services that
>> >> decided a week later that it was impractical to continue. The
>> >> machinery of state continued to function and a new chancellor was
>> >> appointed in the form of Grand Admiral Dönitz. There was nothing
>> >> special about May 1. It was May 8 that was the onset of the
>> >> catastrophe for Germany. Far more people died AFTER May 8, 1945 than
>> >> had died between January 30, 1933 and May 8, 1945. It was another one
>> >> of those Iraqi-style allied "liberations" that have now clearly become
>> >> the pattern of allied "liberations".
>> >
>> >I don't know what you are imbibing, but it must be illegal.
>> 
>> LOL
>> 
>> When cornered, olde gourd accuses others of being druggies.
>> 
>> It is pretty much common knowledge that the dying in Germany basically
>> started on May 8, 1945 putting all the war deaths into shadow.
>
>Really?  What is your support for that silly statement?

The German government archives and the writings of several dozen
authors, plus the experiences of people I know personally attest
rather clearly that the bulk of German population losses occurred
after May 8, 1945. The war losses were trivial by comparison.

The allied terror bombing killed about a million civilians, including
almost half a million children under 14, but the immediate postwar
artificial allied starvation program killed almost 3 million people,
and the postwar allied ethnic cleansing killed another several
millions in the eastern provinces. Of the original population of 14
million in the eastern provinces, only 10 million survived. Dr. Konrad
Adenauer, the first postwar chancellor, estimated the losses in the
east as high as six million. The allies arranged for a reign of terror
against ethnic Germans who were not official German citizens, and the
death toll among them went into the millions also.



From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:36 EDT 2009
Article: 2006169 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazi guard a free man in Austria
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sun, 05 Apr 2009 17:42:03 -0400, Gord McFee 
wrote:

>On Sat, 04 Apr 2009 08:47:11 -0400, in
><3jlet49i4c1qqbkpf03uvbt3q4g83ta0g1@4ax.com>, Johannes von Ebersdorf
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 02 Apr 2009 22:09:02 -0400, Gord McFee 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> >On 3/31/2009 2:15 PM, Johannes von Ebersdorf wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Mon, 30 Mar 2009 21:32:54 -0400, Gord McFee
>> >>  wrote:
>> >> 
>> >>> On 3/30/2009 9:39 AM, Johannes von Ebersdorf wrote:
>> >>> 
>> >>>> On Sat, 28 Mar 2009 23:19:21 -0400, Gord McFee 
>> >>>>  wrote:
>> >>> [...]
>> >>> 
>> >>>>>> Who started what is debatable. I see you are sticking to the
>> >>>>>>  thoughtless allied propaganda claims. That is part of the
>> >>>>>> reason I reject the rest of your stories. AJP Taylor's book
>> >>>>>> "The Origins of the Second World War" makes some sense,
>> >>>>>> whereas you never have.
>> >>>>>> 
>> >>>>> I have read his book more than once and there is a great deal
>> >>>>> of truth in it.  Actually, his book is an example of
>> >>>>> *legitimate* revisionism.
>> >>>>> 
>> >>>>> But the fact remains that Hitler invaded Poland after having
>> >>>>> been explicitly told, several months before, that if he did so,
>> >>>>> treaty obligations would require England to intervene.
>> >>>> Britain said that the Polish frontier wasn't worth the bones of a
>> >>>>  single British grenadier, and suddenly allowing Poland to keep a
>> >>>> few square kilometres of stolen German land was worth the
>> >>>> sacrifice of more than fifty million people. Poland was merely an
>> >>>> excuse to try to legitimize a war that Churchill had planned for
>> >>>> years.
>> >>> Even if that were true, which it isn't,
>> >> 
>> >> We have only your assertion for that, and it simply isn't worth much.
>> >> 
>> >No, we have both German and British documents that confirm it.
>> 
>> Bullshit.
>
>We have both British and German documents that agree that Hitler knew
>the risk he was taking when he invaded Poland, but did it anyway.

Poland was a convenient pretext engineered by Britain. Failing that,
some other excuse would have been found to have a war against Germany.
War against Germany had been pretty much decided when the war party of
Churchill, Vansitart, Cooper, etc. came to power in Britain. It would
not have made any difference what Hitler might have done after 1938.

Britain had its own agenda for launching WW2, and it had nothing to do
with Poland, a country that the British leaders viewed with total
contempt and derision.

>
>> >>> the fact remains that Hitler knew before he invaded Poland that
>> >>> Britain was obliged to come to Poland's defence.
>> >> 
>> >> Nonsense. Britain didn't come to Poland's defence since they said not
>> >>  a peep about the simultaneous Soviet invasion.
>> >
>> >They declared war.
>> 
>> Britain wanted war for its own reasons, not to "save" Poland. They
>> didn't give a flying shit about Poland.
>
>The fact remains that Hitler knew before he invaded Poland that
>Britain was obliged to come to Poland's defence.
>
>> >>>>> And Goebbels and his wife murdered their own children.
>> >>>> I guess they saw visions of Nemmersdorf and numerous other places
>> >>>> the allies visited.
>> >>> No, they were simply fanatical and selfish.
>> 
>> That is just your simple-minded historical tripe.
>
>That is an observation based on their actions.  Almost every Nazi
>agreed that Goebbels was one of the most fanatical Nazis.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:37 EDT 2009
Article: 2006197 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: freed from holocaust denial
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Mon, 6 Apr 2009 07:55:00 -0700 (PDT), Michael Ejercito
 wrote:

>On Apr 5, 1:21 pm, Johannes von Ebersdorf  wrote:
>> On Sun, 5 Apr 2009 15:05:24 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> >"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>> >news:ds5at45sifa63mni4nf4aet17jc1fq6okr@4ax.com...
>> >> On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 18:57:17 -0700 (PDT),Michael Ejercito
>> >>  wrote:
>> >>>   Yes, but the laws would have to be changed first, followed with
>> >>>pardons.
>>
>> >>>   Judges would not be able to overturn those convictions on there
>> >>>own; there is no legal protection of freedom of speech in those
>> >>>places.
>>
>> >> In Germany, supposedly there actually IS freedom of speech and freedom
>> >> of opinion, so the propaganda laws are probably unconstitutional,
>>
>> >As to "probably unconstitiutional", you could try actually reading the
>> >constitution.
>>
>> >Article 5, Paragraph 2 of the Basic Law details the limitations on speech
>> >and expression:
>>
>> >"These rights shall find their limits in the provisions of general laws, in
>> >provisions for the protection of young persons, and in the right to personal
>> >honor. "
>>
>> All the basic rights of Germans are qualified by the ending phrase "or
>> as provided otherwise by law." In other words, Germans have no rights
>> at all, or at least not significantly more than those they enjoyed
>> under the constitution in place when Hitler was in power where the
>> list of basic universal rights was also qualified by "unless we
>> legislate otherwise.".
>   The constitution does protect against speech against unilateral
>executive power.
>
>   Speech can only be criminalized by the legislative process, not by
>executive order.

Sorry Mike, but you have Germany confused with the USA. In the USA,
Presidents are practically dictators who can apparently overrule
legislatures. No German Chancellor has ever had that power. Power
(Imperium) in Germany rests with the Reichstag/Bundestag and has for
centuries. Even the Emperor wasn't in a position to just do as he
wished, quite unlike the American president who behaves like Louis XIV
with his famous comment "I am the state".

The fact remains, however, that the various basic rights of Germans
are all qualified and limited with the line "pursuant to a law".

Typical is Article 10: Secrecy of the mail and secrecy of posts and
telecommunications are inviolable. Restrictions may be ordered only
pursuant to a law.

Clearly, their concept of the term "inviolable" is rather different
>from mine. In other words, the secrecy of the mail, etc. is NOT
inviolable. The article on freedom of opinion, freedom of the press,
etc. is all written in the same style. In other words, none of those
freedoms exist in Germany since all of them are at the caprice of the
German authorities.



>
>
> Michael


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:37 EDT 2009
Article: 2006198 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hitler Had His Support Base Firmly From Republicans -  Conservative Historian Jonah Goldberg
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Mon, 6 Apr 2009 08:16:36 -0700 (PDT), Michael Ejercito
 wrote:

>On Apr 5, 9:08 am, Topaz  wrote:
>>  German leaders believed in death before dishonor.
>   And yet they ended up dishonored AND dead.
>
>>They knew the
>> allies were subhuman monsters:
>   Their Japanese allies were certainly subhuman monsters.
>
>   Read about the Rape of Nanking and Unit 731.

Given the allied crimes against Japan, they are the very last ones
that should accuse anybody else of being subhuman monsters. 

>
>
> Michael


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:37 EDT 2009
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hitler Had His Support Base Firmly From Republicans -  Conservative Historian Jonah Goldberg
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On Mon, 6 Apr 2009 08:17:07 -0700 (PDT), Michael Ejercito
 wrote:

>On Apr 5, 9:09 am, Topaz  wrote:
>>  Here are some quotes from "With Hitler on the Road to Power" by Dr.
>> Otto Dietrich
>   Hitler's road to power was a road to ruin.

Britain's two wars against Germany were directed at a commercial and
trade rival who had, in Britain's view, become too powerful and had to
be brought down. It had little to do with the governments in place at
the time. Even a government consisting of religious pacifists would
have been attacked by Britain if Britain thought that they somehow
presented a challenge to Britain's world hegemony position.

The only good thing to develop out of WW1 and WW2 is the destruction
of the British Empire and the reduction of Britain to a relatively
obscure island off the coast of France. Britain has been the source of
most of the turmoil in Europe these last five hundred years.

>
>
> Michael


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:38 EDT 2009
Article: 2006205 of alt.revisionism
Path: border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-in-01.newsfeed.easynews.com!easynews!core-easynews-01!easynews.com!en-nntp-09.dc1.easynews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Massengrab mit 4.500 Soldaten entdeckt
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Mon, 6 Apr 2009 18:13:05 +0300, "Toivo Kottarainen"
 wrote:

>
>"Bent Attorney Esq."  kirjoitti 
>viestissä:df522be9-1437-4428-9ee4-fd2c5e7fff99@3g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
>On Apr 4, 1:15 pm, "Toivo Kottarainen" 
>wrote:
>> "Bent Attorney Esq."  kirjoitti
>> viestissä:4dc5f70d-aeaa-4bbd-81a2-bbede0dc8...@l1g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
>> On Apr 4, 10:19 am, "Toivo Kottarainen" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > "Johannes von Ebersdorf"  kirjoitti
>> > viestissä:6poet4l0uv79dpgbvns0tmh8f4r4jm9...@4ax.com...
>>
>> > > On Sat, 4 Apr 2009 11:57:07 +0200, "peter van haag" 
>> > > wrote:
>>
>> > >>"Truthseeker"  schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>> > >>news:71qBl.19804$Db2.13881@edtnps83...
>> > >>> Ist ja schon ganz interessant. Immer liest man so was die deutschen
>> > >>> gemacht haben, In Kroatien oder Jugoslawien hatten die Partisanen
>> > >>> deutsche
>> > >>> gefangen in einer Hölle eingemauert und verrecken lassen. Als die
>> > >>> deutschen dieses Gebiet zurück eroberten haben sie dann die 
>> > >>> Partisanen
>> > >>> umgebracht. man kann immer nur hören was die deutschen gemacht haben
>> > >>> aber
>> > >>> was die andern gemacht haben wird verschwiegen.
>>
>> > >>So ist das halt....man darf nicht nur Kriege beginnen....man muß sie
>> > >>auch
>> > >>gewinnen.
>>
>> > > Der zweite Weltkrieg wurde in London entworfen, nicht in Berlin.
>>
>> > >>PvH
>>
>> > The last sentence is not true, either.
>> > But I´m sorry if I personallu offended You. Maybe some of your relatives
>> > died in those mountains.
>> > The world politics and war is not a football game. So what was the point
>> > in
>> > occupying that territory, of any territories. Your explenation "as the 
>> > big
>> > boys did that before" is childish.
>> > Topi
>> >>>>>And your support of plowing Germans is crazy insane.
>>
>> OK. Let´s play it that way.
>>
>> If a German soldier came to my door, tried to steel my cows and last
>> potatos, rape my wife and kill my sons, yes I would kill him and plough 
>> his
>> body to the ground. I could not ever allow to erect a memorial in his
>> honour.
>>
>> If the killing of German brutal beast in that case is wrong, crazy and
>> insane in Your mind, we cannot live in this same planet.
>>
>> Topi
>
>>What if a group of Serbs, after WWI attacked an ethnic German village
>>in Hungary and stole cows; should they be plowed?  The Serbs I mean.
>>What about the Boers in Africa?  Should they be plowed?
>>What about the English that attacked the Boers?  Should they be plowed?
>
>You get what You sow. The Germans got what they deserved on the banks of 
>Volga or on the outskirts of Grozny. Americans met their faith on Mekong 
>River. It is understandable that everyone is willing to defend his home and 
>family. It is all the same to me if the brute at my door was from Afganistan 
>or from Österreich.
>War crimes should not be awarded with memorials as the tourists in my 
>illustration in Volgograd demanded.

The Americans hold the world record for the number of wars and foreign
military adventures, but you apparently don't regard them as monsters.

Incidentally, Finland only exists because it was freed from Russian
control in 1917 by German soldiers. Perhaps the world would have been
a better place had Finland remained a Russian province? The Finnish
language would be extinct by now, and my ears would not be bent by
silly Finnish whiners.

>
>Topi
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:38 EDT 2009
Article: 2006206 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Massengrab mit 4.500 Soldaten entdeckt
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Mon, 6 Apr 2009 17:35:12 +0300, "Toivo Kottarainen"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  kirjoitti 
>viestissä:cujft41lgjb070d2hjkmmfcq9ht9fpnc7v@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 4 Apr 2009 20:15:30 +0300, "Toivo Kottarainen"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Bent Attorney Esq."  kirjoitti
>>>viestissä:4dc5f70d-aeaa-4bbd-81a2-bbede0dc8d0c@l1g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
>>>On Apr 4, 10:19 am, "Toivo Kottarainen" 
>>>wrote:
>>>> "Johannes von Ebersdorf"  kirjoitti
>>>> viestissä:6poet4l0uv79dpgbvns0tmh8f4r4jm9...@4ax.com...
>>>>
>>>> > On Sat, 4 Apr 2009 11:57:07 +0200, "peter van haag" 
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >>"Truthseeker"  schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>>>> >>news:71qBl.19804$Db2.13881@edtnps83...
>>>> >>> Ist ja schon ganz interessant. Immer liest man so was die deutschen
>>>> >>> gemacht haben, In Kroatien oder Jugoslawien hatten die Partisanen
>>>> >>> deutsche
>>>> >>> gefangen in einer Hölle eingemauert und verrecken lassen. Als die
>>>> >>> deutschen dieses Gebiet zurück eroberten haben sie dann die 
>>>> >>> Partisanen
>>>> >>> umgebracht. man kann immer nur hören was die deutschen gemacht haben
>>>> >>> aber
>>>> >>> was die andern gemacht haben wird verschwiegen.
>>>>
>>>> >>So ist das halt....man darf nicht nur Kriege beginnen....man muß sie
>>>> >>auch
>>>> >>gewinnen.
>>>>
>>>> > Der zweite Weltkrieg wurde in London entworfen, nicht in Berlin.
>>>>
>>>> >>PvH
>>>>
>>>> The last sentence is not true, either.
>>>> But I´m sorry if I personallu offended You. Maybe some of your relatives
>>>> died in those mountains.
>>>> The world politics and war is not a football game. So what was the point
>>>> in
>>>> occupying that territory, of any territories. Your explenation "as the 
>>>> big
>>>> boys did that before" is childish.
>>>> Topi
>>>
>>>>>>>>And your support of plowing Germans is crazy insane.
>>>
>>>
>>>OK. Let´s play it that way.
>>>
>>>If a German soldier came to my door, tried to steel my cows and last
>>>potatos, rape my wife and kill my sons, yes I would kill him and plough 
>>>his
>>>body to the ground. I could not ever allow to erect a memorial in his
>>>honour.
>>
>> German soldiers don't do any of those things, at least not legally,
>> quite unlike allied soldiers where such behaviour is encouraged and
>> rewarded.
>
><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
>They don´t nowadays. They did during the WWII. I thought we were talking 
>about history.

They have never been permitted those sorts of actions, at least not in
the last five hundred years. You are talking nonsensical allied war
propaganda, not history. All the WW1 British propaganda was eventually
shown to be false, and I suspect that most of the WW2 propaganda will
also eventually be shown to be false.

>Topi
>
>
><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
>
>> The German military code is quite harsh on people who do any of the
>> actions you describe in your diatribe, but it was par for the course
>> for Soviet soldateska.
>>
>>>
>>>If the killing of German brutal beast in that case is wrong, crazy and
>>>insane in Your mind, we cannot live in this same planet.
>>
>> There is nothing brutal or beastly about German military personnel.
>> You are simply an ignorant bigot.
>>>
>>>Topi
>>>
>
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:38 EDT 2009
Article: 2006207 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Europe’s Right is embracing its Jews
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Mon, 6 Apr 2009 08:11:31 -0700 (PDT), Michael Ejercito
 wrote:

>On Apr 5, 9:13 am, Topaz  wrote:
>>    The West is the White race.
>>
>>     The goal of America is to destroy the White race. The
>> multi-culture and pluralism they push is only at the expense of
>> Whites. No one is trying to push multi-culture in China or Japan or
>> anyplace but on the Whites. And they promote racial intermarriage.
>> If things continue as they are the White race is doomed.
>   How does racial intermarriage threaten whites?

If one breeds a German Shepherd with a Bouvier, then none of the
offspring are purebred dogs anymore. Personally, I figure that
interracial marriage ought to be up to the two people involved, but it
is also obvious that the offspring are neither of the genetic
heritages of the parents.

>
>>
>>   And who is doing all of this? It is the USA government and the
>> media, in other words the Jews.
>   Prove that Jews control the government and media.
>
>>
>>   Many Whites are traitors. They support the USA government and their
>> own destruction. We should look for allies. And anyone who wants to
>> remove the Jews from power is our ally. In the past the Japanese were
>> our allies. Today it is the Muslims.
>   I figured you would ally with Hamas and Al Qaeda.
>
>
> Michael


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:39 EDT 2009
Article: 2006210 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazi guard a free man in Austria
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 17:21:29 GMT, "Truthseeker" 
wrote:

>Very interesting of you. You are certainly not here to analyze facts. Hence 
>you point to spelling mistake from others. I do listening to all kinds of 
>people and do not look for spelling mistake to discredit others. Every time 
>you come out in the open here you only expose the character you have.

McVay is just an ignorant jerk with a very low level of education.
Ignore the silly bastard. He has nothing of value to say anyway.

>Kurt Knoll.
>
>"Kenneth McVay OBC"  wrote in message 
>news:-pCdnf-cu-tuqUfUnZ2dnUVZ_sSdnZ2d@vex.net...
>> In article ,
>> Truthseeker  wrote:
>>>Any excuse from a twofaced parasite like we are all aware of. You are
>>>adamantly opposed to any open meaningful discussion without intimidated
>>>others. You reputation is being challenged by people who know who you are.
>>
>> Learn to use a dictionary, moron.
>> You wouldn't know "meaningful discussion" if it bit your sorry ass.
>>
>> Ampigues?
>>
>> Enziglobedia?
>>
>> Lay off the Sterno, Frau Pikelhaube.
>>
>> 138 Statements Demonstrating Leading Revisionist Scholar
>> Kurt Knoll's strict adherence to the high intellectual
>> standards of Holocaust denial:
>>
>> (See http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/k/knoll-kurt/ for
>> the first 128 -- (Honest, Folks, I'm not making them up!)
>>
>> 129. "How is it going you uderedjucatet vegetable."
>>     <2UBjl.10538$PH1.4917@edtnps82>,, Feb. 8, 2009
>>
>> 130. "It stinks like Jewish garlic keep it."
>>     , Feb. 12, 2009
>>
>> 131. "We all know you are here to but on a show trusting you we do not."
>>     , Feb. 12, 2009
>>
>> 132. "Why is it then American politicians take a trip to Israel and
>>     worship a brick wall called the whaling wall."
>>     , Feb. 20, 2009
>>
>> 133. "Hey you primitive Fuckhead it does not scare you when the
>>     holohoax industrie can take do court people and take them
>>     to a country who executing the will of Israel to punish
>>     people for their opinion to protect Israel at any cost.
>>     This is worse that the middle ages where not believer did
>>     get burnet on the stake for not believing in the holy ghost."
>>     , March 2, 2009
>>
>> 134. "When was this where did the go first."
>>     <7LArl.15187$Db2.8415@edtnps83>, March 4, 2009
>>
>> 135. "You should talk to some remaking prisoners if Iks camp that
>>     is if you are Men enough." ,
>>     March 7, 2009
>>
>> 136. "When it is about zundel he is considered a non conforming I
>>     sore for the holocaust industries." ,
>>     March 17, 2009
>>
>> 137. "One has to look at the Jewish hat mongers. Everyone they say
>>     something they spit out the word Nazi scare mongering is their
>>     main diet. How much longer will he hold the whole world at ransom."
>>     , March 21, 2009
>>
>> 138. "Intersting and what is your real name.Ingeneer may invet
>>     something but the people who use it are no vegetaples. You can talk
>>     all you want people with brain will not trust you."
>>     , April 2, 2009
>> 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:39 EDT 2009
Article: 2006291 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazi guard a free man in Austria
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Mon, 6 Apr 2009 19:41:26 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
wrote:

>
>"Gord McFee"  wrote in message 
>news:439it4dr0j4l81eg9vf4uoaqg6ate5i3kr@4ax.com...
>> On Sat, 04 Apr 2009 08:50:34 -0400, in
>> <8olet41l48jo8gqbcjcv5d176e352ut497@4ax.com>, Johannes von Ebersdorf
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 02 Apr 2009 22:21:13 -0400, Gord McFee 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> >On 4/2/2009 3:48 PM, Johannes von Ebersdorf wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> On Wed, 1 Apr 2009 09:10:26 -0700 (PDT), Michael Ejercito
>>> >>  wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> On Mar 30, 5:31 am, Johannes von Ebersdorf 
>>> >>> wrote:
>>> >>>> On Sat, 28 Mar 2009 11:50:09 -0700 (PDT),Michael Ejercito
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>  wrote:
>>> >>>>> On Mar 28, 5:57 am, Topaz  wrote:
>>> >>>>>> by James Buchanan
>>> >>>>>> Let's say the Germans merely removed the Jews from positions of
>>> >>>>>> political power and banned them from the legal profession.
>>> >>>>>   How were things in Germany on May 1, 1945?
>>> >>>> What is special about May 1?
>>> >>>   It was the day after Hitler killed himself.
>>> >>
>>> >> The war continued unabated, and it was the German armed services that
>>> >> decided a week later that it was impractical to continue. The
>>> >> machinery of state continued to function and a new chancellor was
>>> >> appointed in the form of Grand Admiral Dönitz. There was nothing
>>> >> special about May 1. It was May 8 that was the onset of the
>>> >> catastrophe for Germany. Far more people died AFTER May 8, 1945 than
>>> >> had died between January 30, 1933 and May 8, 1945. It was another one
>>> >> of those Iraqi-style allied "liberations" that have now clearly become
>>> >> the pattern of allied "liberations".
>>> >
>>> >I don't know what you are imbibing, but it must be illegal.
>>>
>>> LOL
>>>
>>> When cornered, olde gourd accuses others of being druggies.
>>>
>>> It is pretty much common knowledge that the dying in Germany basically
>>> started on May 8, 1945 putting all the war deaths into shadow.
>>
>> Really?  What is your support for that silly statement?
>
>And here I thought these folks were upset over the Dresden raid.
>
>But apparently, Mr. Ebersdorf seems to think that is something that just 
>didn't happen.

What are you babbling about? Doing the old trick of putting words into
people's mouths that they didn't say or intend?

Dresden is part of the roughly one million civilians who died as a
result of the allied campaign of terror bombing, so it was not
forgotten. The death toll in the postwar period drastically exceeds
anything that happened during the war.

>
>-pk
>
>>
>> -- 
>> Gord McFee
>> I'll write no line before its time
>>
>> Visit the Holocaust History Project
>> http://www.holocaust-history.org 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:40 EDT 2009
Article: 2006293 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Massengrab mit 4.500 Soldaten entdeckt
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On Mon, 6 Apr 2009 21:07:06 +0300, "Toivo Kottarainen"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  kirjoitti 
>viestissä:drfkt4hakufh342boielnnkqmsldo3kdnm@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 6 Apr 2009 18:13:05 +0300, "Toivo Kottarainen"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>
>> Incidentally, Finland only exists because it was freed from Russian
>> control in 1917 by German soldiers.
>
>That is not true.

Of course it is true. Russia had taken Finland from the Swedes a
considerable time earlier and turned it into a Russian province. The
Russian defeat in 1917 created Finland, as it created Estonia, Latvia,
and Lithuania. The Red Finnish brigades outnumbered the White Finnish
brigades by more than 5:1, so the Reds would have won, making Finland
part of the USSR. It was German soldiers who prevented that from
happening. The Finns are rather ungrateful bastards.

>
>>Perhaps the world would have been
>> a better place had Finland remained a Russian province?
>
>To this I cannot answer...
>
>>The Finnish
>> language would be extinct by now, and my ears would not be bent by
>> silly Finnish whiners.
>
>That is possible but not certain.
>
>Topi
>
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:40 EDT 2009
Article: 2006294 of alt.revisionism
Path: border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-in-01.newsfeed.easynews.com!easynews!core-easynews-01!easynews.com!en-nntp-06.dc1.easynews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Massengrab mit 4.500 Soldaten entdeckt
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On Mon, 6 Apr 2009 13:44:58 -0700 (PDT), "Bent Attorney Esq."
 wrote:

>On Apr 6, 11:13 am, "Toivo Kottarainen" 
>wrote:
>> "Bent Attorney Esq."  kirjoitti
>> viestissä:df522be9-1437-4428-9ee4-fd2c5e7ff...@3g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
>> On Apr 4, 1:15 pm, "Toivo Kottarainen" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > "Bent Attorney Esq."  kirjoitti
>> > viestissä:4dc5f70d-aeaa-4bbd-81a2-bbede0dc8...@l1g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
>> > On Apr 4, 10:19 am, "Toivo Kottarainen" 
>> > wrote:
>>
>> > > "Johannes von Ebersdorf"  kirjoitti
>> > > viestissä:6poet4l0uv79dpgbvns0tmh8f4r4jm9...@4ax.com...
>>
>> > > > On Sat, 4 Apr 2009 11:57:07 +0200, "peter van haag" 
>> > > > wrote:
>>
>> > > >>"Truthseeker"  schrieb im Newsbeitrag
>> > > >>news:71qBl.19804$Db2.13881@edtnps83...
>> > > >>> Ist ja schon ganz interessant. Immer liest man so was die deutschen
>> > > >>> gemacht haben, In Kroatien oder Jugoslawien hatten die Partisanen
>> > > >>> deutsche
>> > > >>> gefangen in einer Hölle eingemauert und verrecken lassen. Als die
>> > > >>> deutschen dieses Gebiet zurück eroberten haben sie dann die
>> > > >>> Partisanen
>> > > >>> umgebracht. man kann immer nur hören was die deutschen gemacht haben
>> > > >>> aber
>> > > >>> was die andern gemacht haben wird verschwiegen.
>>
>> > > >>So ist das halt....man darf nicht nur Kriege beginnen....man muß sie
>> > > >>auch
>> > > >>gewinnen.
>>
>> > > > Der zweite Weltkrieg wurde in London entworfen, nicht in Berlin.
>>
>> > > >>PvH
>>
>> > > The last sentence is not true, either.
>> > > But I´m sorry if I personallu offended You. Maybe some of your relatives
>> > > died in those mountains.
>> > > The world politics and war is not a football game. So what was the point
>> > > in
>> > > occupying that territory, of any territories. Your explenation "as the
>> > > big
>> > > boys did that before" is childish.
>> > > Topi
>> > >>>>>And your support of plowing Germans is crazy insane.
>>
>> > OK. Let´s play it that way.
>>
>> > If a German soldier came to my door, tried to steel my cows and last
>> > potatos, rape my wife and kill my sons, yes I would kill him and plough
>> > his
>> > body to the ground. I could not ever allow to erect a memorial in his
>> > honour.
>>
>> > If the killing of German brutal beast in that case is wrong, crazy and
>> > insane in Your mind, we cannot live in this same planet.
>>
>> > Topi
>> >What if a group of Serbs, after WWI attacked an ethnic German village
>> >in Hungary and stole cows; should they be plowed?  The Serbs I mean.
>> >What about the Boers in Africa?  Should they be plowed?
>> >What about the English that attacked the Boers?  Should they be plowed?
>>
>> You get what You sow. The Germans got what they deserved on the banks of
>> Volga or on the outskirts of Grozny. Americans met their faith on Mekong
>> River. It is understandable that everyone is willing to defend his home and
>> family. It is all the same to me if the brute at my door was from Afganistan
>> or from Österreich.
>> War crimes should not be awarded with memorials as the tourists in my
>> illustration in Volgograd demanded.
>>
>> Topi
>
>Well your general point has merit.  People should mind their own
>business and not make war.  They should not be violent in word or
>deed.  Ambition unfortunately is one of the things that make the world
>go round.  They should practice the commandment:  'Thou shalt not
>covet they neighbour's stuff'.
>Remember that Germany was forced into war.  The treaty of Versailles
>was a very violent 'treaty.'  They invaded the Soviet Union because
>they knew that the SU was going to invade them.  In hindsight 'they'
>should have waited for the Soviets.

I'm not so sure about that. Doing nothing would have meant that there
would be fighting and carnage on German soil already in 1941 rather
than late 1944 as was actually the case.

If one must have a field campaign, it is usually a good idea to have
it somewhere else.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:40 EDT 2009
Article: 2006335 of alt.revisionism
Path: border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-in-01.newsfeed.easynews.com!easynews!core-easynews-01!easynews.com!en-nntp-07.dc1.easynews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Demjanjuk: 29,000 murder charges
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 22:24:14 -0400, Gord McFee 
wrote:

>On Sun, 05 Apr 2009 16:17:45 -0400, in
>, Johannes von Ebersdorf
> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 05 Apr 2009 13:05:11 -0400, Gord McFee 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> >On 4/4/2009 8:44 AM, Johannes von Ebersdorf wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Fri, 03 Apr 2009 07:20:44 +0300, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
>> >>  Holman) wrote:
>> >> 
>> >>> In article , 
>> >>> ebersdorf@gmail.com wrote:
>> >>> 
>> >>>> On Wed, 01 Apr 2009 00:49:41 +0300, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi 
>> >>>> (Eugene Holman) wrote:
>> >>>> 
>> >>> 
>> >>>>> Your sentence doesn't make sense. Deborah Lipstadt was not the 
>> >>>>> one resorting to use of the courts in this particular case.
>> >>>> Nobody said she was. Irving was trying to get the woman off his 
>> >>>> back with her character assassination techniques,...
>> >>> How was Deborah Lipstadt using "character assassination 
>> >>> techniques"? She wrote that he was a dishonest historian, something
>> >>>  that had been known since David Irving's lost libel suit and the 
>> >>> fallout from his book about the bombing of Dresden,
>> >> 
>> >> Irving's book on Dresden is consistent with the observations and 
>> >> recollections of people who were there. Lipstadt is just another paid
>> >>  propagandist whose job it is to excuse or minimize allied crimes.
>> >
>> >Actually, as was proven in court, Irving's book on Dresden is not
>> >consistent with the observations and recollections of people who were
>> >there, and certainly not with the facts.
>> 
>> I personally know people who were there and I find them much more
>> credible than some allied kangaroo court with the assignment to
>> minimize and downplay allied war crimes. Court statements do not
>> necessarily equate to truth. Judges tend to rule in a manner
>> consistent with the wishes of the people who hired them and who pay
>> them. The same thing goes for you. I fully expect you to excuse allied
>> war crimes because that is your assignment, but I'm under no
>> obligation to believe you, and I basically don't.
>
>You obviously do not have to believe anything I say, although you and
>I both know that I have no "assignment" here.  Irving's problems
>though were not in an allied court.  You should read up on the lawsuit
>he lost.

A British court is not an impartial institution since it is part of a
system that has a vested interest in the allied version of WW1 and
WW2. 



From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:41 EDT 2009
Article: 2006337 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazi guard a free man in Austria
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On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 22:44:52 -0400, Gord McFee 
wrote:

>On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 07:34:22 -0400, in
><9upjt4l35faa3niebhv9v979t9gpep9ofa@4ax.com>, Johannes von Ebersdorf
> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 05 Apr 2009 17:42:03 -0400, Gord McFee 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> >On Sat, 04 Apr 2009 08:47:11 -0400, in
>> ><3jlet49i4c1qqbkpf03uvbt3q4g83ta0g1@4ax.com>, Johannes von Ebersdorf
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> On Thu, 02 Apr 2009 22:09:02 -0400, Gord McFee 
>> >> wrote:
>> >> 
>> >> >On 3/31/2009 2:15 PM, Johannes von Ebersdorf wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> On Mon, 30 Mar 2009 21:32:54 -0400, Gord McFee
>> >> >>  wrote:
>> >> >> 
>> >> >>> On 3/30/2009 9:39 AM, Johannes von Ebersdorf wrote:
>> >> >>> 
>> >> >>>> On Sat, 28 Mar 2009 23:19:21 -0400, Gord McFee 
>> >> >>>>  wrote:
>> >> >>> [...]
>> >> >>> 
>> >> >>>>>> Who started what is debatable. I see you are sticking to the
>> >> >>>>>>  thoughtless allied propaganda claims. That is part of the
>> >> >>>>>> reason I reject the rest of your stories. AJP Taylor's book
>> >> >>>>>> "The Origins of the Second World War" makes some sense,
>> >> >>>>>> whereas you never have.
>> >> >>>>>> 
>> >> >>>>> I have read his book more than once and there is a great deal
>> >> >>>>> of truth in it.  Actually, his book is an example of
>> >> >>>>> *legitimate* revisionism.
>> >> >>>>> 
>> >> >>>>> But the fact remains that Hitler invaded Poland after having
>> >> >>>>> been explicitly told, several months before, that if he did so,
>> >> >>>>> treaty obligations would require England to intervene.
>> >> >>>> Britain said that the Polish frontier wasn't worth the bones of a
>> >> >>>>  single British grenadier, and suddenly allowing Poland to keep a
>> >> >>>> few square kilometres of stolen German land was worth the
>> >> >>>> sacrifice of more than fifty million people. Poland was merely an
>> >> >>>> excuse to try to legitimize a war that Churchill had planned for
>> >> >>>> years.
>> >> >>> Even if that were true, which it isn't,
>> >> >> 
>> >> >> We have only your assertion for that, and it simply isn't worth much.
>> >> >> 
>> >> >No, we have both German and British documents that confirm it.
>> >> 
>> >> Bullshit.
>> >
>> >We have both British and German documents that agree that Hitler knew
>> >the risk he was taking when he invaded Poland, but did it anyway.
>> 
>> Poland was a convenient pretext engineered by Britain. Failing that,
>> some other excuse would have been found to have a war against Germany.
>> War against Germany had been pretty much decided when the war party of
>> Churchill, Vansitart, Cooper, etc. came to power in Britain. It would
>> not have made any difference what Hitler might have done after 1938.
>
>What I find funny about this is that it is contradicted by Hitler's
>own remarks.  He was for example livid that the Munich Conference cost
>him the opportunity to invade Czechoslovakia in 1938 and made it clear
>that he would not be denied his chance against Poland in 1939.

All of the Versailles revisions had been essentially bloodless, and
Churchill and the boys were determined that the last revision wouldn't
be. The war party came into power in 1938, and British policy changed
dramatically towards aiming for a new war. It is irrelevant that
Churchill personally did not achieve power until later. His group set
the tone.

>
>I might add that Churchill did not become Prime Minister until 1941,
>and was not admitted to the cabinet until the war had already started,
>so your "War against Germany had been pretty much decided when the war
>party of Churchill, Vansitart, Cooper, etc. came to power in Britain"
>comment rings kind of hollow, not to mention wrong.
> 
>> Britain had its own agenda for launching WW2, and it had nothing to do
>> with Poland, a country that the British leaders viewed with total
>> contempt and derision.
>
>Then what was it?  And what is your support for your statement?

Postwar  the British turned the Polish government-in-exile over to
Stalin, knowing that they would be promptly executed, and it didn't
make so much as a beep as the entire country was handed over to
Stalin's mercies. Poland's job was to provide a pretext for a war
against Germany, and after that had been achieved, Poland was totally
expendable. I am aware of your naive polyanna views of British
motivations, but they don't wash.


>
>[...]


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:41 EDT 2009
Article: 2006338 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazi guard a free man in Austria
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 22:35:57 -0400, Gord McFee 
wrote:

>On Sun, 05 Apr 2009 19:23:23 -0400, in
>, Doc Tony
> wrote:
>
>> Gord McFee wrote:
>> 
>> > On Sat, 04 Apr 2009 08:50:34 -0400, in
>> > <8olet41l48jo8gqbcjcv5d176e352ut497@4ax.com>, Johannes von Ebersdorf
>> >  wrote:
>> > 
>> > 
>> >>On Thu, 02 Apr 2009 22:21:13 -0400, Gord McFee 
>> >>wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>On 4/2/2009 3:48 PM, Johannes von Ebersdorf wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>>On Wed, 1 Apr 2009 09:10:26 -0700 (PDT), Michael Ejercito
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>On Mar 30, 5:31 am, Johannes von Ebersdorf 
>> >>>>>wrote:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>>On Sat, 28 Mar 2009 11:50:09 -0700 (PDT),Michael Ejercito
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> wrote:
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>On Mar 28, 5:57 am, Topaz  wrote:
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>>by James Buchanan
>> >>>>>>>>Let's say the Germans merely removed the Jews from positions of
>> >>>>>>>>political power and banned them from the legal profession.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>  How were things in Germany on May 1, 1945?
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>>What is special about May 1?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>  It was the day after Hitler killed himself.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>The war continued unabated, and it was the German armed services that
>> >>>>decided a week later that it was impractical to continue. The
>> >>>>machinery of state continued to function and a new chancellor was
>> >>>>appointed in the form of Grand Admiral Dönitz. There was nothing
>> >>>>special about May 1. It was May 8 that was the onset of the
>> >>>>catastrophe for Germany. Far more people died AFTER May 8, 1945 than
>> >>>>had died between January 30, 1933 and May 8, 1945. It was another one
>> >>>>of those Iraqi-style allied "liberations" that have now clearly become
>> >>>>the pattern of allied "liberations".
>> >>>
>> >>>I don't know what you are imbibing, but it must be illegal.
>> >>
>> >>LOL
>> >>
>> >>When cornered, olde gourd accuses others of being druggies.
>> >>
>> >>It is pretty much common knowledge that the dying in Germany basically
>> >>started on May 8, 1945 putting all the war deaths into shadow.
>> > 
>> > 
>> > Really?  What is your support for that silly statement?
>> > 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> No doubt, Gord, the same "Papagei®" Ebe 'support' [cough-cough] that 
>> caused Ebe to announce that the Führer was merely acting in 
>> "self-defense" [!] with the invasion of Poland because Ebe says that it 
>> was a matter of common knowledge that the Poles were "mobilizing" [!] 
>> weeks before September 1, 1939

Perhaps you could urge the arsehole who infests Darmstadt to read a
few history books. Poland ordered general mobilization of 25-Aug-1939,
de facto a declaration of war against Germany. Germany took over a
week to respond, whereas American reaction to a similar circumstance
would be one hell of a lot quicker.


> and thus, per Ebe, the Führer had no 
>> other choice but to 'defend' the Heimat by invading Poland! I assume, at 
>> least to hear Ebe tell it, the other overrun nations were no doubt 
>> similarly "mobilizing" and once again the Führer had to engage in "self 
>> protection" and strike first.
>> 
>> Shades of Crackpot® Freddy Berg asking all who will listen to literally 
>> get down on their knees and "be eternally grateful to Adolf Hitler" 
>> [sic] for "saving western civilization" [sic]  via the Führer's alleged 
>> "pre-emptive" [sic] invasion of the USSR. I'm beginning to wonder, Gord, 
>> if Papagei® Ebe isn't doing some ad hoc ghost-drooling for Berg's 
>> website articles! Perhaps Ebe could join Berg on the "producer gas" 
>> [sic] thing and thereby mutually, shall we say, spread the flatus of 
>> such 'producer gas' rhetoric!
>
>I think in terms of passing gas, as it were, those two are experts.
> 
>[...]


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:42 EDT 2009
Article: 2006339 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazi guard a free man in Austria
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 22:38:29 -0400, Gord McFee 
wrote:

>On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 07:30:02 -0400, in
>, Johannes von Ebersdorf
> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 05 Apr 2009 17:37:22 -0400, Gord McFee 
>> wrote:
>
>[...]
>
>> >> It is pretty much common knowledge that the dying in Germany basically
>> >> started on May 8, 1945 putting all the war deaths into shadow.
>> >
>> >Really?  What is your support for that silly statement?
>> 
>> The German government archives and the writings of several dozen
>> authors, plus the experiences of people I know personally attest
>> rather clearly that the bulk of German population losses occurred
>> after May 8, 1945. The war losses were trivial by comparison.
>> 
>> The allied terror bombing killed about a million civilians, including
>> almost half a million children under 14, but the immediate postwar
>> artificial allied starvation program killed almost 3 million people,
>> and the postwar allied ethnic cleansing killed another several
>> millions in the eastern provinces. Of the original population of 14
>> million in the eastern provinces, only 10 million survived. Dr. Konrad
>> Adenauer, the first postwar chancellor, estimated the losses in the
>> east as high as six million. The allies arranged for a reign of terror
>> against ethnic Germans who were not official German citizens, and the
>> death toll among them went into the millions also.
>
>I have never heard any of this.  Do you have references?

I have a library of several dozen books on the topic. Perhaps you
should try doing a bit of reading so you actually know something about
the topic before attempting to engage people in discussions where, by
your own admission, you know and understand very little. What you
haven't heard of is not my problem.



From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:42 EDT 2009
Article: 2006340 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why Gun Confiscation In America Is A Bad Idea
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On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 04:53:19 -0700, Klaus Schadenfreude
 wrote:

>In talk.politics.guns Michael Ejercito  wrote:
>
>>On Apr 6, 5:17 pm, Topaz  wrote:
>>> England's Guilt
>>> by Joseph Goebbels
>>>
>>   He killed himself and his family.
>
>Correction.
>
>He had someone else kill his family. He attempted to kill himself, but
>couldn't even do that without help.
>
>He was a professional liar, and a coward, and we're all better off now
>that he's dead.

Are you projecting your deficient personality traits onto somebody
else, Klaus?


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:42 EDT 2009
Article: 2006341 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hitler Had His Support Base Firmly From Republicans -  Conservative Historian Jonah Goldberg
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On Mon, 6 Apr 2009 18:02:20 -0700 (PDT), Michael Ejercito
 wrote:

>On Apr 6, 10:12 am, Johannes von Ebersdorf 
>wrote:
>> On Mon, 6 Apr 2009 08:16:36 -0700 (PDT), Michael Ejercito
>>
>>  wrote:
>> >On Apr 5, 9:08 am, Topaz  wrote:
>> >>  German leaders believed in death before dishonor.
>> >   And yet they ended up dishonored AND dead.
>>
>> >>They knew the
>> >> allies were subhuman monsters:
>> >   Their Japanese allies were certainly subhuman monsters.
>>
>> >   Read about the Rape of Nanking and Unit 731.
>>
>> Given the allied crimes against Japan, they are the very last ones
>> that should accuse anybody else of being subhuman monsters.
>   What crimes would they be?

Read a few books, you might learn something. You clearly are ignorant
of the topic at hand, so why are you cluttering this newsgroup?

Japan was the usual cowardly American campaign against defenceless
women and children, their ghoulish specialty before and since the
murderous campaign against Japanese civilians.

Everything that the USA has done in its miserable history comes under
the general heading of "dishonourable".


>
>
> Michael


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:43 EDT 2009
Article: 2006877 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why Gun Confiscation In America Is A Bad Idea
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Thu, 09 Apr 2009 03:50:31 -0700, Klaus Schadenfreude
 wrote:

>In talk.politics.guns Topaz  wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 19:18:07 -0700, Klaus Schadenfreude
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>A speech isn't proof. Any moron can make a speech. Any HALF-WIT can
>>>make a speech.
>>
>> In that case your posts don't prove anything.
>
>Sure they do. They prove that nazi windbags like yourself are high on
>glue and completely unable to support their nazi bullshit with facts.
>
>For instance, I supplied documented proof that Goebbels was a liar.

He wasn't any more of liar than your typical allied politician. You
are your typical sanctimonious hypocrite.

>You just posted more speeches, hoping that by supply page after page
>of rhetoric no one would notice that you had no answer.
>
>That's why nazis are losers, and always will be.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:43 EDT 2009
Article: 2006878 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazi guard a free man in Austria
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 17:54:05 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
wrote:

>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:50alt45rja6m80087r0eepu1hnjrektjku@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 6 Apr 2009 19:41:26 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Gord McFee"  wrote in message
>>>news:439it4dr0j4l81eg9vf4uoaqg6ate5i3kr@4ax.com...
>>>> On Sat, 04 Apr 2009 08:50:34 -0400, in
>>>> <8olet41l48jo8gqbcjcv5d176e352ut497@4ax.com>, Johannes von Ebersdorf
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 02 Apr 2009 22:21:13 -0400, Gord McFee 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> >On 4/2/2009 3:48 PM, Johannes von Ebersdorf wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> >> On Wed, 1 Apr 2009 09:10:26 -0700 (PDT), Michael Ejercito
>>>>> >>  wrote:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >>> On Mar 30, 5:31 am, Johannes von Ebersdorf 
>>>>> >>> wrote:
>>>>> >>>> On Sat, 28 Mar 2009 11:50:09 -0700 (PDT),Michael Ejercito
>>>>> >>>>
>>>>> >>>>  wrote:
>>>>> >>>>> On Mar 28, 5:57 am, Topaz  wrote:
>>>>> >>>>>> by James Buchanan
>>>>> >>>>>> Let's say the Germans merely removed the Jews from positions of
>>>>> >>>>>> political power and banned them from the legal profession.
>>>>> >>>>>   How were things in Germany on May 1, 1945?
>>>>> >>>> What is special about May 1?
>>>>> >>>   It was the day after Hitler killed himself.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> The war continued unabated, and it was the German armed services 
>>>>> >> that
>>>>> >> decided a week later that it was impractical to continue. The
>>>>> >> machinery of state continued to function and a new chancellor was
>>>>> >> appointed in the form of Grand Admiral Dönitz. There was nothing
>>>>> >> special about May 1. It was May 8 that was the onset of the
>>>>> >> catastrophe for Germany. Far more people died AFTER May 8, 1945 than
>>>>> >> had died between January 30, 1933 and May 8, 1945. It was another 
>>>>> >> one
>>>>> >> of those Iraqi-style allied "liberations" that have now clearly 
>>>>> >> become
>>>>> >> the pattern of allied "liberations".
>>>>> >
>>>>> >I don't know what you are imbibing, but it must be illegal.
>>>>>
>>>>> LOL
>>>>>
>>>>> When cornered, olde gourd accuses others of being druggies.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is pretty much common knowledge that the dying in Germany basically
>>>>> started on May 8, 1945 putting all the war deaths into shadow.
>>>>
>>>> Really?  What is your support for that silly statement?
>>>
>>>And here I thought these folks were upset over the Dresden raid.
>>>
>>>But apparently, Mr. Ebersdorf seems to think that is something that just
>>>didn't happen.
>>
>> What are you babbling about? Doing the old trick of putting words into
>> people's mouths that they didn't say or intend?
>
>You are implying that there were a negligible number of deaths in Germany 
>during the war, in the process tossing aside 1.5 million civilan deaths.

At no point did I ever say that there were a negligible number of
war-time deaths in Germany, only that those figures are significantly
smaller than postwar losses.

>
>> Dresden is part of the roughly one million civilians who died as a
>> result of the allied campaign of terror bombing, so it was not
>> forgotten. The death toll in the postwar period drastically exceeds
>> anything that happened during the war.
>
>So you think that a million civilians killed is nothing?

You seem to think that, especially if they are German. At no point did
I ever say or imply that.

>
>Incidentally, the wartime German civilian death toll is closer to 1.54 
>million, their military death toll 5.53 million.

These are figures you have pulled out of a hat. Civilian losses
exceeded military losses during the war. Postwar losses among military
personnel also rivalled the war-time totals.

>
>There was no postwar starvation program.

That explains why the Americans prevented the Red Cross and other
international relief agencies from helping anybody in Germany until
1947, two whole years after the end of "official" hostilities. How
does your model account for the fact that more than two million people
in western Germany died of starvation during the allied occupation?

>
>What there was, was an attempt to feed a vast number of people that the 
>Nazis had made homeless by launching a war.

That is cynical nonsense, given that it was the allied terrorist
bombing and the illegal allied ethnic cleansing that created the
homelessness problem in Germany. Besides, being homeless and starving
are two quite separate issues that you are conflating for purposes of
deception.

In addition, the actual facts do not support your silly assertion that
the Nazis "launched" the war. The war was launched from London. It was
Britain and France that attacked Germany, supposedly over Poland, not
the other way around. The facts also show that neither Britain nor
France gave a flying shit about Poland, Polish territorial integrity,
or Polish independence. Poland was a convenient excuse, and nothing
more.



>
>-pk
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>-pk
>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> Gord McFee
>>>> I'll write no line before its time
>>>>
>>>> Visit the Holocaust History Project
>>>> http://www.holocaust-history.org 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:43 EDT 2009
Article: 2006879 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: freed from holocaust denial
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 17:32:04 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
wrote:

>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:21dkt45qp3pm7ehgh0lbsjqs08uo5l7v0v@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 6 Apr 2009 07:55:00 -0700 (PDT), Michael Ejercito
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>On Apr 5, 1:21 pm, Johannes von Ebersdorf  wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 5 Apr 2009 15:05:24 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>> >news:ds5at45sifa63mni4nf4aet17jc1fq6okr@4ax.com...
>>>> >> On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 18:57:17 -0700 (PDT),Michael Ejercito
>>>> >>  wrote:
>>>> >>> Yes, but the laws would have to be changed first, followed with
>>>> >>>pardons.
>>>>
>>>> >>> Judges would not be able to overturn those convictions on there
>>>> >>>own; there is no legal protection of freedom of speech in those
>>>> >>>places.
>>>>
>>>> >> In Germany, supposedly there actually IS freedom of speech and 
>>>> >> freedom
>>>> >> of opinion, so the propaganda laws are probably unconstitutional,
>>>>
>>>> >As to "probably unconstitiutional", you could try actually reading the
>>>> >constitution.
>>>>
>>>> >Article 5, Paragraph 2 of the Basic Law details the limitations on 
>>>> >speech
>>>> >and expression:
>>>>
>>>> >"These rights shall find their limits in the provisions of general 
>>>> >laws, in
>>>> >provisions for the protection of young persons, and in the right to 
>>>> >personal
>>>> >honor. "
>>>>
>>>> All the basic rights of Germans are qualified by the ending phrase "or
>>>> as provided otherwise by law." In other words, Germans have no rights
>>>> at all, or at least not significantly more than those they enjoyed
>>>> under the constitution in place when Hitler was in power where the
>>>> list of basic universal rights was also qualified by "unless we
>>>> legislate otherwise.".
>>>   The constitution does protect against speech against unilateral
>>>executive power.
>>>
>>>   Speech can only be criminalized by the legislative process, not by
>>>executive order.
>>
>> Sorry Mike, but you have Germany confused with the USA. In the USA,
>> Presidents are practically dictators who can apparently overrule
>> legislatures. No German Chancellor has ever had that power. Power
>> (Imperium) in Germany rests with the Reichstag/Bundestag and has for
>> centuries. Even the Emperor wasn't in a position to just do as he
>> wished, quite unlike the American president who behaves like Louis XIV
>> with his famous comment "I am the state".
>>
>> The fact remains, however, that the various basic rights of Germans
>> are all qualified and limited with the line "pursuant to a law".
>
>Which means that the limitations are accepted in the constitution.
>
>This means, simply, that you are agreeing that the limitations are in fact 
>constitutional.

No, I'm saying that the civil rights "protections" in the Basic Law
are meaningless and self-contradictory. The same phrases were in the
German consitution during the NS period. They didn't protect anybody
then, and they don't protect anybody now.


>
>>
>> Typical is Article 10: Secrecy of the mail and secrecy of posts and
>> telecommunications are inviolable. Restrictions may be ordered only
>> pursuant to a law.
>>
>> Clearly, their concept of the term "inviolable" is rather different
>> from mine. In other words, the secrecy of the mail, etc. is NOT
>> inviolable. The article on freedom of opinion, freedom of the press,
>> etc. is all written in the same style. In other words, none of those
>> freedoms exist in Germany since all of them are at the caprice of the
>> German authorities.
>
>Not by caprice, but rather from deliberation by elected representatives. 
>If the German people didn't like the results, they wouldn't re-elect those 
>representatives, and would elect ones that act to their will.
>
>You've already agreed that the limitations are constitutional, despite 
>having first said that they aren't.
>
>-pk
>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:44 EDT 2009
Article: 2006880 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Demjanjuk: 29,000 murder charges
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On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 18:33:55 +0300, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
Holman) wrote:

>In article ,
>ebersdorf@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>> >
>> >You obviously do not have to believe anything I say, although you and
>> >I both know that I have no "assignment" here.  Irving's problems
>> >though were not in an allied court.  You should read up on the lawsuit
>> >he lost.
>> 
>> A British court is not an impartial institution since it is part of a
>> system that has a vested interest in the allied version of WW1 and
>> WW2. 
>
>The issue at stake was not the allied or any other version of WW I and WW
>II. It was whether Deborah Lipstadt had, as alleged by David Irving,
>libeled David Irving when she defamed him, justifying her defamatory
>claims with examples, as a dishonest historian in her book *Denying the
>Holocaust. The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory*.
>
>The outcome of the trial was essentially the following:
>
>1. David Irving informed the court that although he had held more extreme
>views when Deborah Lipstadt had published her book in 1993, as of the
>trial, in spring 2000, he did not deny that the Nazis systematically
>killed millions of European Jews, but he did question whether this killing
>was a matter of state policy, whether Hitler was initially aware of the
>killing or, when he found out about it, of its extent, and whether gas
>chambers, the existence and homicidal use of which David Irving did not
>deny, were used to the extent claimed in the standard literature.
>
>2. David Irving was unable to demonstrate ti the court that any of the
>critical claims Lipstadt had made about his methodology and writings were
>untrue or malicious and thus either unjustified or libelous.
>
>3. David Irving's two expert witnesses informed the court that they were
>in general agreement with Deborah Lipstadt's criticism of Irving's
>unprofessionalism.
>
>4. Deborah Lipstadt's defense team was able to produce dozens more
>examples, some of them from writings that had nothing to do with
>Holocaust-related issues,  of David Irving's dishonesty as a historian,
>thus further supporting her criticism of his lack of professional ethics.
>
>Since it was a libel trial, and David Irving was unable to demonstrate to
>the court that even a single critical claim made by Deborah Lipstadt about
>his dishonesty as a historian was both demonstrably untrue and malicious,
>he lost that case. Justified professional criticism is, by its very
>definition, defamatory, but not libelous.
>
>This has nothing to do with the court's "vested interest" in upholding a
>certain version of historical events. David Irving's professional
>practices and writings were subjected to demonstrably true and justified
>professional criticism. He reacted by suing his critic for libel, in the
>hope of silencing her and preventing such criticism from becoming known to
>a wider audience. Even pleading his own case in court, Daviud Irving was
>unable to demonstrate that anything written about him by Deborah Lipstadt
>had been libelous, while Deborah Lipstadt's team succeeded in
>demonstrating to the court that the few examples discussed in her book
>were merely a small sample of a much longer and frequent pattern of
>systematic professional misconduct, an assessment with which David
>Irving's own expert witnesses had no difficulty agreeing. 
>
>If you make yoourself guilty of easily verified professional misconduct
>and someone blows the whistle on you, you have only yourself to blame if
>you sue the whistleblower for libel, hoping to silence your critic, and
>lose.
>
>Judge Charles Gray had no other alternative than rule that David Irving
>had not been libeled, for which reason Irving, by definition, demonstrated
>himself to be a dishonest historian, just as Deborah Lipstadt had claimed.

It was a political judgement made by a politically motivated court.
There are no surprises there.

>
>Regards,
>Eugene Holman


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:44 EDT 2009
Article: 2006881 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Demjanjuk: 29,000 murder charges
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 22:16:57 +0300, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
Holman) wrote:

>In article <4yMCl.21910$PH1.12470@edtnps82>, "Truthseeker"
> wrote:
>
>> Amazing Eugene what a Jews team can to with all the money and power they do 
>> have over others. Honesty is something your friends have never done. How 
>> much of an expert is your friend Mr van der Pelt ??. He sure known how to 
>> but on a show but he does not know the difference between an explosion or 
>> implosion.
>
>Knowing that difference has nothing in the least to do with the
>determination of whether an allegation of systematic professional
>misconduct is libelous or frivolous.

Lipstadt's books are of the same low quality as the politically
motivated tripe put out by the pseudo-historian Shirer, who wasn't
even a good journalist let alone an historian.

>
>
>
>Regards,
>Eugene Holman


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:45 EDT 2009
Article: 2006882 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Demjanjuk: 29,000 murder charges
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Wed, 08 Apr 2009 08:26:57 +0300, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
Holman) wrote:

>In article , "Truthseeker"
> wrote:
>
>> Amazing Eugene what a Jews team can to with all the money and power they do
>> have over others. Honesty is something your friends have never done. How
>> much of an expert is your friend Mr van der Pelt ??. He sure known how to
>> but on a show but he does not know the difference between an explosion or
>> implosion.
>>
>
>
>David Irving made a career of writing dishonest history

Irving had written all sorts of history books without a single peep of
complaint, until he made the mistake to stepping on the toes of the
holocaust™ industry. He suddenly became an historical hack and was
subjected to a world-wide campaign of vilification and character
assassination.





> and then tried to
>use the British court system to prevent word of this from spreading when
>it was pointed out by a professional historian. He failed to do so, and
>now the entire world knows of his dishonesty. End of story.
>
>Regards,
>Eugene Holman


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:45 EDT 2009
Article: 2006883 of alt.revisionism
Path: border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-in-01.newsfeed.easynews.com!easynews!core-easynews-01!easynews.com!en-nntp-02.dc1.easynews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Demjanjuk: 29,000 murder charges
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 23:43:24 +0300, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
Holman) wrote:

>In article <4yMCl.21910$PH1.12470@edtnps82>, "Truthseeker"
> wrote:
>
>> Amazing Eugene what a Jews team can to with all the money and power they do 
>> have over others. Honesty is something your friends have never done. How 
>> much of an expert is your friend Mr van der Pelt ??. He sure known how to 
>> but on a show but he does not know the difference between an explosion or 
>> implosion.
>
>Knowing that difference has nothing in the least to do with the
>determination of whether an allegation of systematic professional
>misconduct is libelous or justified.

You are putting far too much weight on a court judgement. Oscar Wilde
lost his libel case against Lord Douglas also, not because Lord
Douglas was innocent or correct, but because Lord Douglas had more
pull with the court because of his social position and power.

All kinds of Alice-in-Wonderland judgements come out of courts. In a
very real sense, courts are theatre and sometimes they constitute
theatre-of-the-absurd.


>
>
>
>Regards,
>Eugene Holman


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:46 EDT 2009
Article: 2006885 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hitler Had His Support Base Firmly From Republicans -  Conservative Historian Jonah Goldberg
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 09:12:13 -0700 (PDT), Michael Ejercito
 wrote:

>On Apr 7, 6:58 am, Johannes von Ebersdorf  wrote:
>> On Mon, 6 Apr 2009 18:02:20 -0700 (PDT),Michael Ejercito
>>
>>
>>
>>  wrote:
>> >On Apr 6, 10:12 am, Johannes von Ebersdorf 
>> >wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 6 Apr 2009 08:16:36 -0700 (PDT),Michael Ejercito
>>
>> >>  wrote:
>> >> >   Their Japanese allies were certainly subhuman monsters.
>>
>> >> >   Read about the Rape of Nanking and Unit 731.
>>
>> >> Given the allied crimes against Japan, they are the very last ones
>> >> that should accuse anybody else of being subhuman monsters.
>> >   What crimes would they be?
>>
>> Read a few books, you might learn something. You clearly are ignorant
>> of the topic at hand, so why are you cluttering this newsgroup?
>>
>> Japan was the usual cowardly American campaign against defenceless
>> women and children, their ghoulish specialty before and since the
>> murderous campaign against Japanese civilians.
>>
>   Was the Rape of Nanking cowardly?

An anti-Chinese atrocity years earlier does not excuse American
atrocities later. American atrocities are the fault and responsibility
of Americans, and nobody else.

>
>   How about the Bataan Death March?

Had the Japanese followed the American pattern, all the American
service personnel would have been summarily executed on capture and no
march would have taken place, since corpses don't march at all well.
Americans have to be the world's champion whiners. They like to dish
it out, but if any nasties come their way, they whine and howl
piteously.


>
>
> Michael


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:46 EDT 2009
Article: 2006886 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 911 article what gets into breaking one's imperial conditioning
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 16:26:57 -0700 (PDT), "Bent Attorney Esq."
 wrote:

>On Apr 7, 6:07 pm, ZuLu  wrote:
>> parri...@yahoo.com escribió:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 7 Apr, 20:04, ZuLu  wrote:
>> >> parri...@yahoo.com escribió:
>>
>> >>> On 7 Apr, 18:05, ZuLu  wrote:
>> >>>> parri...@yahoo.com escribió:
>> >>>>> On 7 Apr, 09:25, RJ11  wrote:
>> >>>>>> In article ,
>> >>>>>>   wrote:
>> >>>>>>> On 6 Apr, 23:45, ZuLu  wrote:
>> >>>>>>>> If I had $5 millions to spent off, I would reward it to the first
>> >>>>>>>> engineering or architecture universities which could be able to
>> >>>>>>>> REPRODUCE the falls with 1/100 scale models.
>> >>>>>>> What would that prove? Obviously you're no engineer, or you wouldn't
>> >>>>>>> even suggest such a pointless exercise.
>> >>>>>>    Not only that the poor bastard is no engineer,  he's clearly
>> >>>>>> not familiar with notions such as "volume" and "area".
>> >>>>> He's a particularly daft and dishonest individual. Even for usenet.
>> >>>> Oh yes, "kill the messenger" is a technique you are familiar, aren't you?
>> >>> No. After all, you are rather daft and dishonest.
>> >> Some example to sustain your accusation?
>>
>> > Sure - look up one of your posts in google groups, click on your name,
>> > then click profile.
>>
>> And?
>>
>> Do you know the Gayssot Act?
>> Try Wiki.
>
>Zulu, these cats are agents.  You can give all the evidence you want;
>they will counter with bullshit.

Bovine excrement is their specialty.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:46 EDT 2009
Article: 2006887 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Massengrab mit 4.500 Soldaten entdeckt
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 17:30:39 +0300, "Toivo Kottarainen"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  kirjoitti 
>viestissä:48alt4pqs533vl8mqhqllc5q1ekc7hu9e1@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 6 Apr 2009 21:07:06 +0300, "Toivo Kottarainen"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  kirjoitti
>>>viestissä:drfkt4hakufh342boielnnkqmsldo3kdnm@4ax.com...
>>>> On Mon, 6 Apr 2009 18:13:05 +0300, "Toivo Kottarainen"
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Incidentally, Finland only exists because it was freed from Russian
>>>> control in 1917 by German soldiers.
>>>
>>>That is not true.
>>
>> Of course it is true. Russia had taken Finland from the Swedes a
>> considerable time earlier and turned it into a Russian province. The
>> Russian defeat in 1917 created Finland, as it created Estonia, Latvia,
>> and Lithuania. The Red Finnish brigades outnumbered the White Finnish
>> brigades by more than 5:1, so the Reds would have won, making Finland
>> part of the USSR. It was German soldiers who prevented that from
>> happening. The Finns are rather ungrateful bastards.
>>
>Finland declared herself independent on December 6th, 1917. That was 
>recognized by Russia, Sweden and France on January 4th, 1918, Germany two 
>days later and other European countries followed soon after.

How does your model explain the Soviet invasion to overturn Finnish
independence? Obviously Lenin did not recognize Finnish independence.

>
>The governement troops had already beaten the red rebels when a division of 
>9500 Germans led by Rudiger von der Goltz came ashore on southern coast of 
>Finland April 4th.
>
>von der Goltz fought the lost worldwar till the end of June 1919 in the 
>Baltic states and even tried a coup d` Ètat in Latvia.
>
>The commander of Finnish armed forces, general Mannerherheim was not 
>grateful at all to see von der Goltz coming, and all Finns were grateful to 
>see him going.

Mannerheim was essentially an agent for the British. He didn't give
flying shit about Finland. Mannerheim was an expert at arranging
defeats for the Finnish forces.

>
>Topi 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:46 EDT 2009
Article: 2006889 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Massengrab mit 4.500 Soldaten entdeckt
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 20:28:25 +0300, "Toivo Kottarainen"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  kirjoitti 
>viestissä:3galt49qgdd7t0b16hvmsnkneond1bvqld@4ax.com...
>> On Mon, 6 Apr 2009 13:44:58 -0700 (PDT), "Bent Attorney Esq."
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Well your general point has merit.  People should mind their own
>>>business and not make war.  They should not be violent in word or
>>>deed.  Ambition unfortunately is one of the things that make the world
>>>go round.  They should practice the commandment:  'Thou shalt not
>>>covet they neighbour's stuff'.
>>>Remember that Germany was forced into war.  The treaty of Versailles
>>>was a very violent 'treaty.'  They invaded the Soviet Union because
>>>they knew that the SU was going to invade them.  In hindsight 'they'
>>>should have waited for the Soviets.
>>
>> I'm not so sure about that. Doing nothing would have meant that there
>> would be fighting and carnage on German soil already in 1941 rather
>> than late 1944 as was actually the case.
>>
>> If one must have a field campaign, it is usually a good idea to have
>> it somewhere else.
>
>And the result was that Germany fought the last year of war on German soil 
>with minimal resources and a beaten army. Half of the country fell under 
>boshevik dictatorship. I can hardly imagine a worse strategy.

Being outnumbered by at least 20:1 somewhat limits your freedom of
action. The army was not "beaten", just badly outnumbered. As for
resources, those were minimal from day one, but the German forces
managed to maintain themselves for several years despite that
disadvantage. 

The fact that half of Germany and all of eastern Europe fell under
Bolshevik influence is the consequence of Anglo-American stupidity,
not of any action by German officials.
>
>Topi 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:47 EDT 2009
Article: 2006891 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Denouncing revisionism
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 15:01:46 -0700 (PDT), "Jew - Defender & Nazi -
Killer"  wrote:

>On 8 apr, 23:31, "Truthseeker"  wrote:
>> Is there something wrong trying to find out the truth. Therefore I ask you
>> do you know what truth is.
>> KK
>>
>> "Jew - Defender & Nazi - Killer"  wrote in messagenews:6cf0e22c-da82-4c83-ac0f-5620b1ff3b26@3g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 8 apr, 14:18, "Truthseeker"  wrote:
>> >> Are you real who you claim you are.
>> >> kk
>>
>> >>  wrote in message
>>
>> >>news:ac94efa8-8700-4f91-b094-436fd6b99fa6@z15g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> >> > Dear group,
>>
>> >> > For years I have been youth leader for the NVU. The NVU is an ultra
>> >> > rightwing party which commits itself (although we don't officially say
>> >> > so on our website), to the destruction of the Jews:www.nvu.info
>>
>> >> > I now declare that I cannot defend anymore the horrible crimes Nazi-
>> >> > Germany has committed in World War 2. I also cannot defend anymore the
>> >> > role I have played so far in promoting the views of Nazi, Neonazi's
>> >> > and anti-semits in general.
>>
>> >> > I deeply regret what I have done and I have decided to leave the NVU
>> >> > for good and become an active member in fighting anti-semitism and
>> >> > their adherents.
>>
>> >> > Ivo Pastoor
>>
>> > Truthseeker,
>>
>> > Are you who you claim to be?
>
>"do you know what truth is."
>
>When it comes to jews and nazi's all I can say is that at least I have
>a better understanding of the truth than you.

You're entitled to your opinion. Perhaps you would be gracious enough
to allow others their opinions without attack and harassment by folks
such as you.



From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:47 EDT 2009
Article: 2006893 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Denouncing revisionism
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Thu, 09 Apr 2009 00:21:20 GMT, "Truthseeker" 
wrote:

>
>"Kenneth McVay OBC"  wrote in message 
>news:HuidnXmx19rzu0DUnZ2dnUVZ_q6dnZ2d@vex.net...
>> In article ,
>> Truthseeker  wrote:
>>>Is there something wrong trying to find out the truth. Therefore I ask you
>>>do you know what truth is.
>>
>> Do you?
>>
>> YOU have yet to prove that there are Holocaust victims' shoes
>> with soles made of plastic, as you claimed on April 3, 2009. You
>> were lying.
>Its been on this news group here go and look for it.
>Kurt Knoll.

Poor Kenny is an airhead with a very low level of education. He is not
here to discuss anything. He is here to disrupt and harass.

>
>>
>> YOU have yet to prove that the Yale University Law "Avalon Project"
>> is "Jewish," as you claimed in August, 2008.
>>
>> YOU have yet to prove that "Gussen was a regional crematorium
>> and therefore also included civilian death from this area," as you
>> claimed on July 3, 2008.
>>
>> YOU have yet to prove that "the Germans killed more Jews
>> that were ever alive" as you claimed on June 28, 2008
>>
>> YOU have yet to prove that reporters or photographers carried
>> "5 or 6" striped inmate uniforms from concentration camp to
>> concentration camp just to photograph people wearing them,
>> as you have claimed.
>>
>> YOU have yet to prove that (1) human fat will not combust, and
>> (2) contribute to the heat of the cremation process, as you
>> have claimed.
>>
>> YOU have failed to prove the existence of a single "Eisenhower
>> death camp," as you have claimed, and you have ignored the fact
>> that the German Government itself has said that Bacque's
>> assertions about hundreds of thousands of German soldiers being
>> deliberately starved to death is absolute rubbish.
>>
>> YOU have failed to document that concentration camp guards -
>> ANY concentration camp guards - were ever placed under any
>> sort of "gag order" by anyone, as you have claimed, nor have you
>> been able to produce this alleged "gag order," or point to any
>> archive, anywhere in the world, where it might be found.
>>
>> YOU have failed to prove your incredibly stupid assertion that
>> 45,000 people died during the bombing of Nurnberg as you have claimed.
>>
>> YOU have failed to prove your bizarre assertion that someone,
>> somewhere, said that the Germans killed prisoners at Mauthausen
>> as soon as they arrived by train, as you have claimed.
>>
>> YOU have yet to show which clause of the Versailles Treaty, exactly,
>> prohibits the construction of Polish military installations along
>> the Polish Corridor, even though you claim such a prohibition exists
>> within the treaty.
>>
>> YOU have failed to produce any "agreement" between the Allies and the
>> post-war German government that banned "butting" the Allies in "a bad
>> light" as you have claimed.
>>
>> YOU have not contacted European universities to determine whether or not
>> materials you claim are "banned," as you have claimed, are available.
>>
>> YOU have not documented a single law that banned publication of newspapers
>> printed between 1918 and 1939, as you have claimed.
>>
>> YOU have not contacted the IFZ to ask them to document their claim about
>> gassings at Dachau.
>>
>> YOU cannot produce a shred of documentation proving that a plaque exists
>> outside the Dachau camp which states that no one was ever gassed there,
>> as you have claimed.
>>
>> YOU have not documented a single law which bans "discussion of the
>> Holocaust," or "asking questions about the Holocaust," as you have
>> claimed.
>>
>> THAT is why your claim that you are here to "find out the truth" is so
>> easily revealed as a blatant lie.
>>
>> YOU have not documented or identified a single law which forbids
>> "dissection" of Holocaust historiography, as you have claimed.
>>
>> -- 
>> "this mite hold with the uneducated fools but any man
>> with brains will see it full of holes" ("Irving Supporter,"
>> a Leading Revisionist Scholar)
>>                   http://www.nizkor.org 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:47 EDT 2009
Article: 2006896 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Denouncing revisionism
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 21:41:36 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
wrote:

>"Topaz"  wrote in message 
>news:ggjqt49esevr49umlnbjqerm3cvs72fcgp@4ax.com...
>>
>
>> There are men who can prove the 'Holocaust' is a Big Lie.
>
>Actually, there aren't.   There are people who lie about it, for their own 
>reasons.

You're most probably the liar, Patrick, since why else would you run
around hysterically accusing everybody else of lying? The accusations
of lying are a smoke-screen to cover your own actions.

Your use of dishonest and misleading labels such as "liar" and
"denier" speaks volumes about your lack of sincerity. The use of
loaded terms is an old trick used by propagandists for centuries.

>
>> You can find them in jail.
>
>Let's look at Zundel, since that's who you are referring to.
>
>Zundel admitted that he believes that the Holocaust actually occurred.
>
>He admitted this when he failed, twice, in convincing juries that he 
>actually believed that the Holocaust denial material he published was 
>materially true, and a appealed using a defence that he had a constitutional 
>right to lie.
>
>A person telling the truth has no need for such a defence.
>
>
>> Their imprisonment is scarcely mentioned in the mass
>> media. Their imprisonment goes unlamented by the mass columnists.  To
>> discuss these men and their work would endanger the Propa-sphere the
>> media construct.
>
>No, they are just not as important as they think.
>
>> They must disappear. But we know, mass media. And
>> we're not going away. We're getting louder and stronger.
>
>You mean, you're getting better internet connections.
>
>> And there's
>> nothing you can do to stop us.
>
>I keep reading Holocaust deniers say that, and it keeps not happening.
>
>-pk
>
>
> 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:48 EDT 2009
Article: 2006897 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Denouncing revisionism
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Thu, 09 Apr 2009 03:03:29 GMT, "Truthseeker" 
wrote:

>Knock it of Patrick anyone you does not agree with your version is a 
>holocaust denier. But there is no one who is more dishonest and corrupt that 
>your clan is.

Amen, Amen, Amen.


>Kurt Knoll.
>
>"Patrick Keenan"  wrote in message 
>news:LsCdnVbLBITfzkDUnZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@supernews.com...
>> "Topaz"  wrote in message 
>> news:ggjqt49esevr49umlnbjqerm3cvs72fcgp@4ax.com...
>>>
>> 
>>> There are men who can prove the 'Holocaust' is a Big Lie.
>>
>> Actually, there aren't.   There are people who lie about it, for their own 
>> reasons.
>>
>>> You can find them in jail.
>>
>> Let's look at Zundel, since that's who you are referring to.
>>
>> Zundel admitted that he believes that the Holocaust actually occurred.
>>
>> He admitted this when he failed, twice, in convincing juries that he 
>> actually believed that the Holocaust denial material he published was 
>> materially true, and a appealed using a defence that he had a 
>> constitutional right to lie.
>>
>> A person telling the truth has no need for such a defence.
>>
>>
>>> Their imprisonment is scarcely mentioned in the mass
>>> media. Their imprisonment goes unlamented by the mass columnists.  To
>>> discuss these men and their work would endanger the Propa-sphere the
>>> media construct.
>>
>> No, they are just not as important as they think.
>>
>>> They must disappear. But we know, mass media. And
>>> we're not going away. We're getting louder and stronger.
>>
>> You mean, you're getting better internet connections.
>>
>>> And there's
>>> nothing you can do to stop us.
>>
>> I keep reading Holocaust deniers say that, and it keeps not happening.
>>
>> -pk
>>
>>
>> 
>> 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:48 EDT 2009
Article: 2006898 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Denouncing revisionism
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 23:52:14 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
wrote:

>"Truthseeker"  wrote in message 
>news:5AdDl.20858$Db2.15695@edtnps83...
>> Knock it of Patrick anyone you does not agree with your version is a 
>> holocaust denier. But there is no one who is more dishonest and corrupt 
>> that your clan is.
>
>Excuse me, but Zundel is the one who made a fortune from promotiong material 
>he admitted was false.

We have only your word for that, and your word isn't worth much.

>
>You were saying something about dishonest and corrupt?
>
>-pk
>
>> Kurt Knoll.
>>
>> "Patrick Keenan"  wrote in message 
>> news:LsCdnVbLBITfzkDUnZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@supernews.com...
>>> "Topaz"  wrote in message 
>>> news:ggjqt49esevr49umlnbjqerm3cvs72fcgp@4ax.com...
>>>>
>>> 
>>>> There are men who can prove the 'Holocaust' is a Big Lie.
>>>
>>> Actually, there aren't.   There are people who lie about it, for their 
>>> own reasons.
>>>
>>>> You can find them in jail.
>>>
>>> Let's look at Zundel, since that's who you are referring to.
>>>
>>> Zundel admitted that he believes that the Holocaust actually occurred.
>>>
>>> He admitted this when he failed, twice, in convincing juries that he 
>>> actually believed that the Holocaust denial material he published was 
>>> materially true, and a appealed using a defence that he had a 
>>> constitutional right to lie.
>>>
>>> A person telling the truth has no need for such a defence.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Their imprisonment is scarcely mentioned in the mass
>>>> media. Their imprisonment goes unlamented by the mass columnists.  To
>>>> discuss these men and their work would endanger the Propa-sphere the
>>>> media construct.
>>>
>>> No, they are just not as important as they think.
>>>
>>>> They must disappear. But we know, mass media. And
>>>> we're not going away. We're getting louder and stronger.
>>>
>>> You mean, you're getting better internet connections.
>>>
>>>> And there's
>>>> nothing you can do to stop us.
>>>
>>> I keep reading Holocaust deniers say that, and it keeps not happening.
>>>
>>> -pk
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>
>> 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:48 EDT 2009
Article: 2006899 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ugo Voigt, Questions Ho£ocau$t™ Toll, Demands Return of German Land
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 17:18:10 +0200, "Heinrich" 
wrote:

>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1572234/Udo-Voigt-neo-Nazi-questions-Auschwitz-toll.html
>
>http://www.ejpress.org/article/news/western_europe/22421
>
>The head of the German neo-Nazi party NPD, Udo Voigt, has questioned the 
>number of Holocaust deaths and demanded the return of German land lost after 
>World War II, in an interview to be broadcast on Monday.
>
>"Six million cannot be right. At most, 340,000 people could have died in 
>Auschwitz," Voigt said in excerpts from the interview that were released in 
>advance.
>
>"The Jews always say: ’Even if one Jew died that is a crime.’ But of course 
>it makes a difference whether one has to pay for six million people or for 
>340,000," the head of the National Democratic Party added.
>
>Voigt also demanded the return of "Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania, Western 
>Prussia, Eastern Prussia and Silesia, regardless of whether it is 
>Koenigsberg (Kaliningrad), Danzig (Gdansk) or Breslau (Wroclaw). "All these 
>cities are German in our view, and we demand to exercise our rights over 
>them."

The NPD may be right-wing, but loaded terms such as "neo-Nazi" make
the article tendentious and suspect.

Voigt speaks the truth when he says that Königsberg, Danzig, and
Breslau were German cities since their founding, and neither Russians
nor Poles have any entitlement to them. While there is no prospect of
recovering them, it does not follow that the theft should be
"accepted" as "legitimate". It wasn't legitimate when it was done, and
it doesn't become legitimate as time passes. In AD 3009, Polish and
German claims to Breslau would be about equal, according to
international law, assuming that Poland still holds the city a
thousand years into the future.




From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:49 EDT 2009
Article: 2006901 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ugo Voigt, Questions Ho£ocau$t™ Toll, Demands Return of German Land
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On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 17:18:10 +0200, "Heinrich" 
wrote:

>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1572234/Udo-Voigt-neo-Nazi-questions-Auschwitz-toll.html
>
>http://www.ejpress.org/article/news/western_europe/22421
>
>The head of the German neo-Nazi party NPD, Udo Voigt, has questioned the 
>number of Holocaust deaths and demanded the return of German land lost after 
>World War II, in an interview to be broadcast on Monday.
>
>"Six million cannot be right. At most, 340,000 people could have died in 
>Auschwitz," Voigt said in excerpts from the interview that were released in 
>advance.
>
>"The Jews always say: ’Even if one Jew died that is a crime.’ But of course 
>it makes a difference whether one has to pay for six million people or for 
>340,000," the head of the National Democratic Party added.
>
>Voigt also demanded the return of "Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania,

Actually, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern still is part of Germany. It is
eastern Pomeria, Hinterpommern, that was seized by the Polish
Communists in 1945.


> Western 
>Prussia, Eastern Prussia and Silesia, regardless of whether it is 
>Koenigsberg (Kaliningrad), Danzig (Gdansk) or Breslau (Wroclaw). "All these 
>cities are German in our view, and we demand to exercise our rights over 
>them."


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:49 EDT 2009
Article: 2006906 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ugo Voigt, Questions Ho£ocau$tT Toll, Demands Return of German Land
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 18:44:13 +0300, "Toivo Kottarainen"
 wrote:

>
>"Heinrich"  kirjoitti 
>viestissä:743thhF10h8hdU1@mid.individual.net...
>> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1572234/Udo-Voigt-neo-Nazi-questions-Auschwitz-toll.html
>>
>> http://www.ejpress.org/article/news/western_europe/22421
>>
>.
>>
>> Voigt also demanded the return of "Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania, Western 
>> Prussia, Eastern Prussia and Silesia, regardless of whether it is 
>> Koenigsberg (Kaliningrad), Danzig (Gdansk) or Breslau (Wroclaw). "All 
>> these cities are German in our view, and we demand to exercise our rights 
>> over them."
>>
>And Warthegau, the General Gouvernement, Sudetenland, the Crimea and the 
>Holy Roman Empire, Northern Africa and Namibia. Moon. Missouri and Oregon 
>and Xanadu. Troy.
>
>Topi 
>
You're being silly Topi. You obviously support ethnic cleansing and
mass murder by Communists, so what is your hangup about similar
actions by Nazis?

Incidentally, the official name of the Holy Roman Empire was Heiliges
Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation (Holy Roman Empire of the German
Nation). That was the 1st Empire and what was founded in 1871 was the
2nd Empire. Legally, there never was a third, although popular jargon
applies that name to the NS period in Germany 1933 - 1945. 

Legally, the Federal Republic of Germany is the TRUSTEE of the 2nd
Empire and acts on its behalf until such time as the control
institutions in the form of the Reichstag, Reichsrat, and
Reichsgericht are reactivated. 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:49 EDT 2009
Article: 2006908 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ugo Voigt, Questions Ho£ocau$tT Toll, Demands Return of German Land
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 17:24:42 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
wrote:

>"Heinrich"  wrote in message 
>news:743thhF10h8hdU1@mid.individual.net...
>> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1572234/Udo-Voigt-neo-Nazi-questions-Auschwitz-toll.html
>>
>> http://www.ejpress.org/article/news/western_europe/22421
>>
>> The head of the German neo-Nazi party NPD, Udo Voigt, has questioned the 
>> number of Holocaust deaths and demanded the return of German land lost 
>> after World War II, in an interview to be broadcast on Monday.
>>
>> "Six million cannot be right. At most, 340,000 people could have died in 
>> Auschwitz," Voigt said in excerpts from the interview that were released 
>> in advance.
>
>Though of course he carefully gives no justification for this number, which 
>isn't supported by facts.

Actually, Voigt's numbers for Auschwitz are probably gross
exaggerations since they contradict the camp records released by the
USSR a few years ago by a factor of 5. Unless you come up with a
really convincing argument as to why the German authorities would
spend time and effort to keep false records for themselves, I will
continue to regard the camp records as authoritative. Keeping false
records for yourself makes no sense.

>
>>
>> "The Jews always say: 'Even if one Jew died that is a crime.' But of 
>> course it makes a difference whether one has to pay for six million people 
>> or for 340,000," the head of the National Democratic Party added.
>
>One might note that the reparations to Israel are not - and were never - 
>based on the number who died, but on the number who *survived*.
>
>If Mr Voigt wants to prove that the survivors *were actually killed*, which 
>is what would reduce the reparations payments, now would be the time to show 
>his work.
>
>
>> Voigt also demanded the return of "Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania, Western 
>> Prussia, Eastern Prussia and Silesia, regardless of whether it is 
>> Koenigsberg (Kaliningrad), Danzig (Gdansk) or Breslau (Wroclaw). "All 
>> these cities are German in our view, and we demand to exercise our rights 
>> over them."
>
>He's entitled to his view.   That doesn't mean he's also entitled to take 
>the property of others.
>
>-pk
>
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:50 EDT 2009
Article: 2006909 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ugo Voigt, Questions Ho£ocau$tT Toll, Demands Return of German Land
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Wed, 08 Apr 2009 20:23:19 -0500, Alexander 
wrote:

>Patrick Keenan wrote:
>> "Heinrich"  wrote in message 
>> news:743thhF10h8hdU1@mid.individual.net...
>>> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1572234/Udo-Voigt-neo-Nazi-questions-Auschwitz-toll.html
>>>
>>> http://www.ejpress.org/article/news/western_europe/22421
>>>
>>> The head of the German neo-Nazi party NPD, Udo Voigt, has questioned the 
>>> number of Holocaust deaths and demanded the return of German land lost 
>>> after World War II, in an interview to be broadcast on Monday.
>>>
>>> "Six million cannot be right. At most, 340,000 people could have died in 
>>> Auschwitz," Voigt said in excerpts from the interview that were released 
>>> in advance.
>> 
>> Though of course he carefully gives no justification for this number, which 
>> isn't supported by facts.
>> 
>>> "The Jews always say: 'Even if one Jew died that is a crime.' But of 
>>> course it makes a difference whether one has to pay for six million people 
>>> or for 340,000," the head of the National Democratic Party added.
>> 
>> One might note that the reparations to Israel are not - and were never - 
>> based on the number who died, but on the number who *survived*.
>> 
>> If Mr Voigt wants to prove that the survivors *were actually killed*, which 
>> is what would reduce the reparations payments, now would be the time to show 
>> his work.
>> 
>> 
>>> Voigt also demanded the return of "Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania, Western 
>>> Prussia, Eastern Prussia and Silesia, regardless of whether it is 
>>> Koenigsberg (Kaliningrad), Danzig (Gdansk) or Breslau (Wroclaw). "All 
>>> these cities are German in our view, and we demand to exercise our rights 
>>> over them."
>> 
>> He's entitled to his view.   That doesn't mean he's also entitled to take 
>> the property of others.\

It was/is the Russian and Polish Communists who are the thieves. All
Voigt was doing was naming theft a theft, even if it hurts the
feelings of the thieves.

>
>That is exactly what we have all said of the Jews and horses asses like 
>you that back their murderous land grabs.
>> 
>> -pk
>> 
>> 
>> 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:50 EDT 2009
Article: 2006910 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ugo Voigt, Questions Ho£ocau$tT Toll, Demands Return of German Land
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 21:42:13 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
wrote:

>
>"Alexander"  wrote in message 
>news:745106F1209s8U1@mid.individual.net...
>> Patrick Keenan wrote:
>>> "Heinrich"  wrote in message 
>>> news:743thhF10h8hdU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1572234/Udo-Voigt-neo-Nazi-questions-Auschwitz-toll.html
>>>>
>>>> http://www.ejpress.org/article/news/western_europe/22421
>>>>
>>>> The head of the German neo-Nazi party NPD, Udo Voigt, has questioned the 
>>>> number of Holocaust deaths and demanded the return of German land lost 
>>>> after World War II, in an interview to be broadcast on Monday.
>>>>
>>>> "Six million cannot be right. At most, 340,000 people could have died in 
>>>> Auschwitz," Voigt said in excerpts from the interview that were released 
>>>> in advance.
>>>
>>> Though of course he carefully gives no justification for this number, 
>>> which isn't supported by facts.
>>>
>>>> "The Jews always say: 'Even if one Jew died that is a crime.' But of 
>>>> course it makes a difference whether one has to pay for six million 
>>>> people or for 340,000," the head of the National Democratic Party added.
>>>
>>> One might note that the reparations to Israel are not - and were never - 
>>> based on the number who died, but on the number who *survived*.
>>>
>>> If Mr Voigt wants to prove that the survivors *were actually killed*, 
>>> which is what would reduce the reparations payments, now would be the 
>>> time to show his work.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Voigt also demanded the return of "Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania, 
>>>> Western Prussia, Eastern Prussia and Silesia, regardless of whether it 
>>>> is Koenigsberg (Kaliningrad), Danzig (Gdansk) or Breslau (Wroclaw). "All 
>>>> these cities are German in our view, and we demand to exercise our 
>>>> rights over them."
>>>
>>> He's entitled to his view.   That doesn't mean he's also entitled to take 
>>> the property of others.\
>>
>> That is exactly what we have all said of the Jews and horses asses like 
>> you that back their murderous land grabs.
>
>Again:  If Mr Voigt wants to prove that the survivors *were actually 
>killed*, which  is what would reduce the reparations payments, now would be 
>the time to show
>his work.

The survivors didn't get much money. It was the Israeli Zionists and
other Jewish political organizations which are the big beneficiaries
of this extortion racket.

If somebody can reasonably PROVE that they suffered under the NS
regime, then compensation is reasonable. I just object to throwing
money at Zionists who use it to buy arms to murder more children in
the Middle East.

>
>-pk
>
>
>
>>>
>>> -pk
>>>
>>> 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:50 EDT 2009
Article: 2007015 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Demjanjuk: 29,000 murder charges
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Thu, 9 Apr 2009 14:44:31 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
wrote:

>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:qu0st4t8s8aq2rlhtru0febkp3p4pe9ogk@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 18:33:55 +0300, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
>> Holman) wrote:
>>
>>>In article ,
>>>ebersdorf@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> >
>>>> >You obviously do not have to believe anything I say, although you and
>>>> >I both know that I have no "assignment" here.  Irving's problems
>>>> >though were not in an allied court.  You should read up on the lawsuit
>>>> >he lost.
>>>>
>>>> A British court is not an impartial institution since it is part of a
>>>> system that has a vested interest in the allied version of WW1 and
>>>> WW2.
>>>
>>>The issue at stake was not the allied or any other version of WW I and WW
>>>II. It was whether Deborah Lipstadt had, as alleged by David Irving,
>>>libeled David Irving when she defamed him, justifying her defamatory
>>>claims with examples, as a dishonest historian in her book *Denying the
>>>Holocaust. The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory*.
>>>
>>>The outcome of the trial was essentially the following:
>>>
>>>1. David Irving informed the court that although he had held more extreme
>>>views when Deborah Lipstadt had published her book in 1993, as of the
>>>trial, in spring 2000, he did not deny that the Nazis systematically
>>>killed millions of European Jews, but he did question whether this killing
>>>was a matter of state policy, whether Hitler was initially aware of the
>>>killing or, when he found out about it, of its extent, and whether gas
>>>chambers, the existence and homicidal use of which David Irving did not
>>>deny, were used to the extent claimed in the standard literature.
>>>
>>>2. David Irving was unable to demonstrate ti the court that any of the
>>>critical claims Lipstadt had made about his methodology and writings were
>>>untrue or malicious and thus either unjustified or libelous.
>>>
>>>3. David Irving's two expert witnesses informed the court that they were
>>>in general agreement with Deborah Lipstadt's criticism of Irving's
>>>unprofessionalism.
>>>
>>>4. Deborah Lipstadt's defense team was able to produce dozens more
>>>examples, some of them from writings that had nothing to do with
>>>Holocaust-related issues,  of David Irving's dishonesty as a historian,
>>>thus further supporting her criticism of his lack of professional ethics.
>>>
>>>Since it was a libel trial, and David Irving was unable to demonstrate to
>>>the court that even a single critical claim made by Deborah Lipstadt about
>>>his dishonesty as a historian was both demonstrably untrue and malicious,
>>>he lost that case. Justified professional criticism is, by its very
>>>definition, defamatory, but not libelous.
>>>
>>>This has nothing to do with the court's "vested interest" in upholding a
>>>certain version of historical events. David Irving's professional
>>>practices and writings were subjected to demonstrably true and justified
>>>professional criticism. He reacted by suing his critic for libel, in the
>>>hope of silencing her and preventing such criticism from becoming known to
>>>a wider audience. Even pleading his own case in court, Daviud Irving was
>>>unable to demonstrate that anything written about him by Deborah Lipstadt
>>>had been libelous, while Deborah Lipstadt's team succeeded in
>>>demonstrating to the court that the few examples discussed in her book
>>>were merely a small sample of a much longer and frequent pattern of
>>>systematic professional misconduct, an assessment with which David
>>>Irving's own expert witnesses had no difficulty agreeing.
>>>
>>>If you make yoourself guilty of easily verified professional misconduct
>>>and someone blows the whistle on you, you have only yourself to blame if
>>>you sue the whistleblower for libel, hoping to silence your critic, and
>>>lose.
>>>
>>>Judge Charles Gray had no other alternative than rule that David Irving
>>>had not been libeled, for which reason Irving, by definition, demonstrated
>>>himself to be a dishonest historian, just as Deborah Lipstadt had claimed.
>>
>> It was a political judgement made by a politically motivated court.
>
>No, it was a legal decision made in a court biased towards the person who 
>brought the action - Irving.

It is really tough to win a libel action in Britain. It would have
been easier in Canada because here the law actually DOES side with the
plaintiff, but not in Britain.

>
>Lipstadt's lawyers showed that her evaluation of Irving was justified based 
>on Irving's own writings.
>
>Irving completely and utterly failed to counter this.   He didn't appear to 
>even know how to try to explain his own words.
>
>There was absolutely no need for politics.   The facts were more than 
>sufficient.
>
>> There are no surprises there.
>
>And it isn't a surprise that you must pretend that this is anything other 
>than Irving going to court with a very, very weak case.
>
>He tried to bully people who were exercising their rights to speech.   His 
>own words showed that Lipstadt's evaluation was correct.
>
>If you *want* to apply a political cast to this, look at it this way:   The 
>Court supported Ms. Lipstadt's rights to free speech.
>
>You are one of those guys who likes to pretend you're in favour of free 
>speech, aren't you?
>
>-pk
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>Eugene Holman 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:51 EDT 2009
Article: 2007017 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Demjanjuk: 29,000 murder charges
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Thu, 9 Apr 2009 15:04:43 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
wrote:

>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:941st4hebrqtul5e9bg39b30lhne10o7k8@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 08 Apr 2009 08:26:57 +0300, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
>> Holman) wrote:
>>
>>>In article , "Truthseeker"
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Amazing Eugene what a Jews team can to with all the money and power they 
>>>> do
>>>> have over others. Honesty is something your friends have never done. How
>>>> much of an expert is your friend Mr van der Pelt ??. He sure known how 
>>>> to
>>>> but on a show but he does not know the difference between an explosion 
>>>> or
>>>> implosion.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>David Irving made a career of writing dishonest history
>>
>> Irving had written all sorts of history books without a single peep of
>> complaint,
>
>Sorry, but this is false.
>
>Irving had been sued for libel previously, in 1968 by Captain K E Broome. 
>Irving lost then, too.

LOL

I was just finishing my education then, before I started working, so I
have never heard of Mr. Broome or his complaint.

I assume that a Google search will cause Mr. Broome to surface, or is
he one of your inventions?

>
>Being taken to court for libel could very well be interpreted as a "peep of 
>complaint", so your premise is false.
>
>Again.
>
>> until he made the mistake to stepping on the toes of the
>> holocaustT industry. He suddenly became an historical hack
>
>It wasn't sudden.
>
>> and was subjected to a world-wide campaign of vilification and character
>> assassination.
>
>Actually it was honest evaluation of his tactics, that Holocaust deniers and 
>"revisionists" mounted a campaign against.
>
>His real problems came when he decided that other people shouldn't have a 
>right to free speech, and chose the wrong target to bully.
>
>He lost twice before a total of four judges, and he lost because Lipstadt 
>wrote the truth about him.
>
>
>-pk
>
>>
>>
>>> and then tried to
>>>use the British court system to prevent word of this from spreading when
>>>it was pointed out by a professional historian. He failed to do so, and
>>>now the entire world knows of his dishonesty. End of story.
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>Eugene Holman 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:51 EDT 2009
Article: 2007018 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Demjanjuk: 29,000 murder charges
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On Thu, 9 Apr 2009 14:54:00 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
wrote:

>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:dd1st4tt5u3p6qk0d29ov0oil1u2kgkdnj@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 23:43:24 +0300, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
>> Holman) wrote:
>>
>>>In article <4yMCl.21910$PH1.12470@edtnps82>, "Truthseeker"
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Amazing Eugene what a Jews team can to with all the money and power they 
>>>> do
>>>> have over others. Honesty is something your friends have never done. How
>>>> much of an expert is your friend Mr van der Pelt ??. He sure known how 
>>>> to
>>>> but on a show but he does not know the difference between an explosion 
>>>> or
>>>> implosion.
>>>
>>>Knowing that difference has nothing in the least to do with the
>>>determination of whether an allegation of systematic professional
>>>misconduct is libelous or justified.
>>
>> You are putting far too much weight on a court judgement.
>
>Actually, it's more than one judgement, as you should know by now.
>
>Irving attempted to appeal the High Court libel loss, and a panel of three 
>justices agreed with Mr. Justice Grey's ruling:
>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1334697/Irving-loses-appeal.html
>"Giving judgment, Lord Justice Pill said that Mr Justice Gray was "fully 
>entitled" to hold that the defence of justification succeeded."
>
>So, Irving was judged twice by a total of four judges, and all of them found 
>that Lipstadt was justified in what she wrote about Irving.
>
>Irving lost, because what Lipstadt wrote about him was true.

That doesn't follow. What happened is that four British judges ruled
against Irving, but that doesn't translate into "truth" on the part of
Lipstadt. Dozens of judges in the past ruled that the earth was flat
or that so-and-so were witches, but we know for certain that the world
isn't flat and that witches don't exist, so the judges were clearly
wrong. They are just people with opinions.

>
>Get over it.
>
>
>> Oscar Wilde
>> lost his libel case against Lord Douglas also, not because Lord
>> Douglas was innocent or correct, but because Lord Douglas had more
>> pull with the court because of his social position and power.
>
>So, you are saying that Wilde was *not* a homosexual, or that his 
>homosexuality wasn't commonly known or had been witnessed by others?
>
>>
>> All kinds of Alice-in-Wonderland judgements come out of courts. In a
>> very real sense, courts are theatre and sometimes they constitute
>> theatre-of-the-absurd.
>
>And often times, they do not.
>
>Irving lost, because Lipstadt wrote the truth about him.
>
>Get over it.
>
>-pk
>
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>Eugene Holman 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:51 EDT 2009
Article: 2007020 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Massengrab mit 4.500 Soldaten entdeckt
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On Thu, 9 Apr 2009 18:42:10 +0300, "Toivo Kottarainen"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  kirjoitti 
>viestissä:g52st41vouvg7pm6j3qat66kuhsojk7jkn@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 17:30:39 +0300, "Toivo Kottarainen"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>
>> How does your model explain the Soviet invasion to overturn Finnish
>> independence? Obviously Lenin did not recognize Finnish independence.
>>
>>
>> Mannerheim was essentially an agent for the British. He didn't give
>> flying shit about Finland. Mannerheim was an expert at arranging
>> defeats for the Finnish forces.
>>
> Lenin and Trotsky and all the others who were in power then recocnized 
>Finlands independence.

Lenin expected the Red Finns to win, but Germans inferfered with that
projection.

> The border lines were recocnized in 1920 in Tarto, 
>Estonia. Mannerheim was a former Czars general but of Finnish origin.

Actually the guy was Swedish, Topi.

> He was 
>an expert in arraging defeats to attacking bolshevik forces during the 
>Winter War 1939-1940. That was Stalins war connected to Molotov-Ribbentrop 
>treaty. They tried to take our land but it wasn´t that easy. It is not easy 
>today.
>
>Topi 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:52 EDT 2009
Article: 2007022 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Denouncing revisionism
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Thu, 9 Apr 2009 14:24:22 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
wrote:

>"Truthseeker"  wrote in message 
>news:x8nDl.22180$PH1.9409@edtnps82...
>> Did he really where did he say this.
>
>In his successful appeal of the False News conviction.   His defence was 
>that he had a constitutional right to lie.

Nonsense.

There is no such section in the Canadian constitution. It provides for
free expression of opinion.

>
>You could actually try paying attention.
>
>-pk
>
>
>> kk
>>
>> "Patrick Keenan"  wrote in message 
>> news:0oydndutkvtC7EDUnZ2dnUVZ_oKdnZ2d@supernews.com...
>>> "Truthseeker"  wrote in message 
>>> news:5AdDl.20858$Db2.15695@edtnps83...
>>>> Knock it of Patrick anyone you does not agree with your version is a 
>>>> holocaust denier. But there is no one who is more dishonest and corrupt 
>>>> that your clan is.
>>>
>>> Excuse me, but Zundel is the one who made a fortune from promotiong 
>>> material he admitted was false.
>>>
>>> You were saying something about dishonest and corrupt?
>>>
>>> -pk
>>>
>>>> Kurt Knoll.
>>>>
>>>> "Patrick Keenan"  wrote in message 
>>>> news:LsCdnVbLBITfzkDUnZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@supernews.com...
>>>>> "Topaz"  wrote in message 
>>>>> news:ggjqt49esevr49umlnbjqerm3cvs72fcgp@4ax.com...
>>>>>>
>>>>> 
>>>>>> There are men who can prove the 'Holocaust' is a Big Lie.
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually, there aren't.   There are people who lie about it, for their 
>>>>> own reasons.
>>>>>
>>>>>> You can find them in jail.
>>>>>
>>>>> Let's look at Zundel, since that's who you are referring to.
>>>>>
>>>>> Zundel admitted that he believes that the Holocaust actually occurred.
>>>>>
>>>>> He admitted this when he failed, twice, in convincing juries that he 
>>>>> actually believed that the Holocaust denial material he published was 
>>>>> materially true, and a appealed using a defence that he had a 
>>>>> constitutional right to lie.
>>>>>
>>>>> A person telling the truth has no need for such a defence.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Their imprisonment is scarcely mentioned in the mass
>>>>>> media. Their imprisonment goes unlamented by the mass columnists.  To
>>>>>> discuss these men and their work would endanger the Propa-sphere the
>>>>>> media construct.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, they are just not as important as they think.
>>>>>
>>>>>> They must disappear. But we know, mass media. And
>>>>>> we're not going away. We're getting louder and stronger.
>>>>>
>>>>> You mean, you're getting better internet connections.
>>>>>
>>>>>> And there's
>>>>>> nothing you can do to stop us.
>>>>>
>>>>> I keep reading Holocaust deniers say that, and it keeps not happening.
>>>>>
>>>>> -pk
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:52 EDT 2009
Article: 2007025 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Denouncing revisionism
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Thu, 9 Apr 2009 14:35:19 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
wrote:

>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:m14st4l4munbv42cno649dvtm3t0n45a03@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 23:52:14 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>"Truthseeker"  wrote in message
>>>news:5AdDl.20858$Db2.15695@edtnps83...
>>>> Knock it of Patrick anyone you does not agree with your version is a
>>>> holocaust denier. But there is no one who is more dishonest and corrupt
>>>> that your clan is.
>>>
>>>Excuse me, but Zundel is the one who made a fortune from promotiong 
>>>material
>>>he admitted was false.
>>
>> We have only your word for that, and your word isn't worth much.
>
>Actually you don't have my words at all.    Read the transcripts.
>
>There you will find that what we have are Zundel's words, in the form of his 
>appeal grounds, which asserted a constitutional right to lie.

The Charter of Rights and Freedoms contains a fair bit of material,
but the "right to lie" isn't among them. You are fabricating this out
of thin air or putting your own airheaded interpretation on something
that means something else entirely.

>
>He asserted a right to lie since he could not convince rational people that 
>he actually believed that the Holocaust did not occur, more or less as 
>understood.
>
>A person who believes that he is speaking the truth does not have to assert 
>a right to lie, and an honest person who believed they were speaking the 
>truth would be offended by the suggestion of using such a defence.
>
>Clearly, Zundel was neither honest or speaking the truth.
>
>He could not successfully use the simple defence for the False News charge: 
>that he actually believed what he was saying.   *Two* juries found that 
>Zundel DOES believe that the Holocaust occurred, more or less as is commonly 
>understood, and that he was publishing material he knew to be false.
>
>Since his defence was not credible, he had to go for the truth, which is 
>that he knew the material was false.
>
>And it's also known that he made a fortune publishing this material, some of 
>which was sold to countries where he knew it was illegal (Germany).   He 
>knew that as a German citizen he was breaking German law.
>
>Read the transcripts and the judgements.
>
>-pk
>
>
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>You were saying something about dishonest and corrupt?
>>>
>>>-pk
>>>
>>>> Kurt Knoll.
>>>>
>>>> "Patrick Keenan"  wrote in message
>>>> news:LsCdnVbLBITfzkDUnZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@supernews.com...
>>>>> "Topaz"  wrote in message
>>>>> news:ggjqt49esevr49umlnbjqerm3cvs72fcgp@4ax.com...
>>>>>>
>>>>> 
>>>>>> There are men who can prove the 'Holocaust' is a Big Lie.
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually, there aren't.   There are people who lie about it, for their
>>>>> own reasons.
>>>>>
>>>>>> You can find them in jail.
>>>>>
>>>>> Let's look at Zundel, since that's who you are referring to.
>>>>>
>>>>> Zundel admitted that he believes that the Holocaust actually occurred.
>>>>>
>>>>> He admitted this when he failed, twice, in convincing juries that he
>>>>> actually believed that the Holocaust denial material he published was
>>>>> materially true, and a appealed using a defence that he had a
>>>>> constitutional right to lie.
>>>>>
>>>>> A person telling the truth has no need for such a defence.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Their imprisonment is scarcely mentioned in the mass
>>>>>> media. Their imprisonment goes unlamented by the mass columnists.  To
>>>>>> discuss these men and their work would endanger the Propa-sphere the
>>>>>> media construct.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, they are just not as important as they think.
>>>>>
>>>>>> They must disappear. But we know, mass media. And
>>>>>> we're not going away. We're getting louder and stronger.
>>>>>
>>>>> You mean, you're getting better internet connections.
>>>>>
>>>>>> And there's
>>>>>> nothing you can do to stop us.
>>>>>
>>>>> I keep reading Holocaust deniers say that, and it keeps not happening.
>>>>>
>>>>> -pk
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:52 EDT 2009
Article: 2007026 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Denouncing revisionism
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Thu, 9 Apr 2009 14:38:02 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
wrote:

>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:am3st49sl010ebihsan4e0p8uurlestm25@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 21:41:36 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>"Topaz"  wrote in message
>>>news:ggjqt49esevr49umlnbjqerm3cvs72fcgp@4ax.com...
>>>>
>>>
>>>> There are men who can prove the 'Holocaust' is a Big Lie.
>>>
>>>Actually, there aren't.   There are people who lie about it, for their own
>>>reasons.
>>
>> You're most probably the liar, Patrick, since why else would you run
>> around hysterically accusing everybody else of lying? The accusations
>> of lying are a smoke-screen to cover your own actions.
>
>If you can present something that materially challenges what I have written, 
>now is the time to do so.

Most of what you write is "dreck", Patrick. You just generally make
outrageous assertions, all without evidence let alone proof. Besides,
"proof" only exists in the realm of mathematics. The real world
involves a balance of probabilities, and what you claim generally has
a very low probability.

>
>
>> Your use of dishonest and misleading labels such as "liar" and
>> "denier" speaks volumes about your lack of sincerity. The use of
>> loaded terms is an old trick used by propagandists for centuries.
>
>And yet you can not address the clear reasons I give for the things I say in 
>the very post you reply to.
>
>What a surprise.
>
>-pk
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>> You can find them in jail.
>>>
>>>Let's look at Zundel, since that's who you are referring to.
>>>
>>>Zundel admitted that he believes that the Holocaust actually occurred.
>>>
>>>He admitted this when he failed, twice, in convincing juries that he
>>>actually believed that the Holocaust denial material he published was
>>>materially true, and a appealed using a defence that he had a 
>>>constitutional
>>>right to lie.
>>>
>>>A person telling the truth has no need for such a defence.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Their imprisonment is scarcely mentioned in the mass
>>>> media. Their imprisonment goes unlamented by the mass columnists.  To
>>>> discuss these men and their work would endanger the Propa-sphere the
>>>> media construct.
>>>
>>>No, they are just not as important as they think.
>>>
>>>> They must disappear. But we know, mass media. And
>>>> we're not going away. We're getting louder and stronger.
>>>
>>>You mean, you're getting better internet connections.
>>>
>>>> And there's
>>>> nothing you can do to stop us.
>>>
>>>I keep reading Holocaust deniers say that, and it keeps not happening.
>>>
>>>-pk
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:53 EDT 2009
Article: 2007028 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ugo Voigt, Questions Ho£ocau$tT Toll, Demands Return of German Land
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Thu, 9 Apr 2009 16:32:13 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:2h6st45hdh0purf9qcbcs14ohue8ifs2r8@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 08 Apr 2009 20:23:19 -0500, Alexander 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Patrick Keenan wrote:
>>>> "Heinrich"  wrote in message
>>>> news:743thhF10h8hdU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1572234/Udo-Voigt-neo-Nazi-questions-Auschwitz-toll.html
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.ejpress.org/article/news/western_europe/22421
>>>>>
>>>>> The head of the German neo-Nazi party NPD, Udo Voigt, has questioned 
>>>>> the
>>>>> number of Holocaust deaths and demanded the return of German land lost
>>>>> after World War II, in an interview to be broadcast on Monday.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Six million cannot be right. At most, 340,000 people could have died 
>>>>> in
>>>>> Auschwitz," Voigt said in excerpts from the interview that were 
>>>>> released
>>>>> in advance.
>>>>
>>>> Though of course he carefully gives no justification for this number, 
>>>> which
>>>> isn't supported by facts.
>>>>
>>>>> "The Jews always say: 'Even if one Jew died that is a crime.' But of
>>>>> course it makes a difference whether one has to pay for six million 
>>>>> people
>>>>> or for 340,000," the head of the National Democratic Party added.
>>>>
>>>> One might note that the reparations to Israel are not - and were never -
>>>> based on the number who died, but on the number who *survived*.
>>>>
>>>> If Mr Voigt wants to prove that the survivors *were actually killed*, 
>>>> which
>>>> is what would reduce the reparations payments, now would be the time to 
>>>> show
>>>> his work.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Voigt also demanded the return of "Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania, 
>>>>> Western
>>>>> Prussia, Eastern Prussia and Silesia, regardless of whether it is
>>>>> Koenigsberg (Kaliningrad), Danzig (Gdansk) or Breslau (Wroclaw). "All
>>>>> these cities are German in our view, and we demand to exercise our 
>>>>> rights
>>>>> over them."
>>>>
>>>> He's entitled to his view.   That doesn't mean he's also entitled to 
>>>> take
>>>> the property of others.\
>>
>> It was/is the Russian and Polish Communists who are the thieves.
>
>One might note that Nazi foreign policy was pretty heavily based on the 
>organised theft of land, resources, and property.

That's what the British propaganda says, but then they have always
made outrageous statements with an absolute minimum of evidence.

>
>One might also note that Nazis regularly looted the countries they entered, 
>and many personally enriched themselves in this way.

Most of the countries that were occupied by Germany during WW2 didn't
have to pot to piss in, so consequently even if theft were the intent,
there would be nothing to steal.

>
>> All Voigt was doing was naming theft a theft, even if it hurts the
>> feelings of the thieves.
>
>Speaking of which, we are still finding art and other property stolen by 
>Nazi leaders.   Does naming that theft hurt your feelings?

While I have heard of the NS leaders stealing some art, it was on a
dramatically smaller scale than the thievery of the Americans who sent
stuff home by the ship-load.

>
>And again:  The reparations payments are and have always been based on the 
>number of survivors, not on the number murdered.

They are not reparation payments. They are compensation for
individuals. That much I support, especially if evidence of
persecution is produced, but I am totally opposed to throwing money at
Israel and at some of the world's Zionist organizations.

>
>If you or Mr Voigt want to prove that the survivors *were actually killed*, 
>which is what would reduce the reparations payments, now would be the time 
>to show
> your work.

This blurb makes no sense. Survivors get compensation because of the
family members who died. Had there been no deaths, there would have
been no compensation either, much as it took the USA many decades to
make even token restitution to the Americans of Japanese ancestry that
had all their property confiscated based on sheer American racism.

>
>-pk
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>That is exactly what we have all said of the Jews and horses asses like
>>>you that back their murderous land grabs.
>>>>
>>>> -pk
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:53 EDT 2009
Article: 2007030 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ugo Voigt, Questions Ho£ocau$tT Toll, Demands Return of German Land
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Thu, 9 Apr 2009 14:19:51 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
wrote:

>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:796st41cb1kkhfdqv4benngbr0vldbmkmt@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 17:24:42 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>"Heinrich"  wrote in message
>>>news:743thhF10h8hdU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1572234/Udo-Voigt-neo-Nazi-questions-Auschwitz-toll.html
>>>>
>>>> http://www.ejpress.org/article/news/western_europe/22421
>>>>
>>>> The head of the German neo-Nazi party NPD, Udo Voigt, has questioned the
>>>> number of Holocaust deaths and demanded the return of German land lost
>>>> after World War II, in an interview to be broadcast on Monday.
>>>>
>>>> "Six million cannot be right. At most, 340,000 people could have died in
>>>> Auschwitz," Voigt said in excerpts from the interview that were released
>>>> in advance.
>>>
>>>Though of course he carefully gives no justification for this number, 
>>>which
>>>isn't supported by facts.
>>
>> Actually, Voigt's numbers for Auschwitz are probably gross
>> exaggerations since they contradict the camp records released by the
>> USSR a few years ago by a factor of 5. Unless you come up with a
>> really convincing argument as to why the German authorities would
>> spend time and effort to keep false records for themselves,
>
>They aren't false records they kept for themselves.
>
>And they are not complete records of everything that went on in the camps.

Incomplete records are automatically false records. It simply isn't
the German way of doing business.

>
>I suspect you know perfectly well that these records are not what you 
>pretend that they are.
>
>
>> I will
>> continue to regard the camp records as authoritative. Keeping false
>> records for yourself makes no sense.
>
>As far as making sense, do you think that invading Russia in late summer and 
>refusing to equip your troops with winter gear makes sense?

LOL

I guess they should have hired a mental giant like you to be a field
marshall, and everything would have worked out differently. 

The fact is that they had not expected to still be in the area once
winter hit. Material of all sorts had been in short supply since day
one, which is one reason I take allied claims that Germany launched
this war with a large grain of salt. They would have been prepared for
a long, big war by 1944, but not in 1939. That is exactly why Britain
and France picked 1939 to arrange for their war.


>
>The records you refer to only account for *registered prisoners*, but you 
>already know that, don't you?

I know all about the claims that they supposedly only bothered to
record the occasional prisoner, a claim that makes as much sense as
the Royal Bank of Canada only bothering to record the occasional
deposit or withdrawal. That approach would make ALL the records
worthless, and they wouldn't have bothered to keep any records at all,
because the ones they would have would be totally worthless.

>
>Those who arrived at Auschwitz and were not selected for labour were not 
>registered as prisoners, were not recorded in these books, were killed more 
>or less immediately, and do not appear on camp records otherwise.
>
>They appear on other non-camp records, such as the transport records.
>
>The Soviet records aren't false, they are accurate for what they are; but 
>they just aren't a record of what you pretend they are a record of.
>
>Now, if you wanted to do something towards lowering the reparations 
>payments, you'd be trying to get the death toll numbers higher, as the 
>reparations were based on the number of *survivors*, not on the number of 
>*deaths*.
>
>What you are arguing, without apparently realizing it,  is that the 
>reparations payments to Israel are too low.
>
>-pk
>
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "The Jews always say: 'Even if one Jew died that is a crime.' But of
>>>> course it makes a difference whether one has to pay for six million 
>>>> people
>>>> or for 340,000," the head of the National Democratic Party added.
>>>
>>>One might note that the reparations to Israel are not - and were never -
>>>based on the number who died, but on the number who *survived*.
>>>
>>>If Mr Voigt wants to prove that the survivors *were actually killed*, 
>>>which
>>>is what would reduce the reparations payments, now would be the time to 
>>>show
>>>his work.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Voigt also demanded the return of "Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania, 
>>>> Western
>>>> Prussia, Eastern Prussia and Silesia, regardless of whether it is
>>>> Koenigsberg (Kaliningrad), Danzig (Gdansk) or Breslau (Wroclaw). "All
>>>> these cities are German in our view, and we demand to exercise our 
>>>> rights
>>>> over them."
>>>
>>>He's entitled to his view.   That doesn't mean he's also entitled to take
>>>the property of others.
>>>
>>>-pk
>>>
>>> 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:54 EDT 2009
Article: 2007031 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ugo Voigt, Questions Ho£ocau$tT Toll, Demands Return of German Land
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On Thu, 9 Apr 2009 19:47:42 +0300, "Toivo Kottarainen"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  kirjoitti 
>viestissä:km5st4t3i39p7qgs8428r8lvdr2mlh8h8m@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 18:44:13 +0300, "Toivo Kottarainen"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>> You're being silly Topi. You obviously support ethnic cleansing and
>> mass murder by Communists, so what is your hangup about similar
>> actions by Nazis?
>>
>> Incidentally, the official name of the Holy Roman Empire was Heiliges
>> Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation (Holy Roman Empire of the German
>> Nation). That was the 1st Empire and what was founded in 1871 was the
>> 2nd Empire. Legally, there never was a third, although popular jargon
>> applies that name to the NS period in Germany 1933 - 1945.
>>
>> Legally, the Federal Republic of Germany is the TRUSTEE of the 2nd
>> Empire and acts on its behalf until such time as the control
>> institutions in the form of the Reichstag, Reichsrat, and
>> Reichsgericht are reactivated.
>
>And Judenrats. That could be as difficult as to control the Moon.

Those were not part of the administrative structure of any German
state in the last two thousand years.

>
>I may be silly but I never have supported ethnic cleansings and mass murders 
>either by communists or  by natzis. That is wrong !

You seem to support Russian/Polish ethnic cleansing in the eastern
provinces and the multi-million person death toll that went with it.
Obviously the loss of Danzig, Breslau, and Stettin are fait accompli,
but that hardly makes it right or somehow generates Russian/Polish
entitlements to those areas. The ethnic cleansing of eastern Germany
was and remains one of the greatest crimes in the history of humanity.

>
>Have a peaceful Easter, Johannes.
>Toivo (Topi) Kottarainen 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:54 EDT 2009
Article: 2007032 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ugo Voigt, Questions Ho£ocau$tT Toll, Demands Return of German Land
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Thu, 9 Apr 2009 20:53:25 +0300, "Toivo Kottarainen"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  kirjoitti 
>viestissä:f54st4lh33mbst37uqsl296odpvn0am6dg@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 17:18:10 +0200, "Heinrich" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Voigt speaks the truth when he says that Königsberg, Danzig, and
>> Breslau were German cities since their founding, and neither Russians
>> nor Poles have any entitlement to them. While there is no prospect of
>> recovering them, it does not follow that the theft should be
>> "accepted" as "legitimate". It wasn't legitimate when it was done, and
>> it doesn't become legitimate as time passes. In AD 3009, Polish and
>> German claims to Breslau would be about equal, according to
>> international law, assuming that Poland still holds the city a
>> thousand years into the future.
>>
>>
>Natonalism was an idea of late AD 1800. I can quarantee You that there will 
>not be such thing in AD 3009. Nowadays there is EU and nowadays all those 
>who wish to live in Wroclaw or in Gdansk can do so with same taxation and 
>same civil rights not dependend of their origin. There is no need for old 
>time nationalism in Europe anymore and no need for nationalist political 
>parties.

You should try to tell that to the chauvinistic Poles and Czechs. You
are terribly naive, Topi.

>
>Topi 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:54 EDT 2009
Article: 2007033 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ugo Voigt, Questions Ho£ocau$tT Toll, Demands Return of German Land
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Thu, 9 Apr 2009 14:23:06 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
wrote:

>"Toivo Kottarainen"  wrote in message 
>news:49de361f$0$26329$9b536df3@news.fv.fi...
>>
>> "Johannes von Ebersdorf"  kirjoitti 
>> viestissä:f54st4lh33mbst37uqsl296odpvn0am6dg@4ax.com...
>>> On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 17:18:10 +0200, "Heinrich" 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Voigt speaks the truth when he says that Königsberg, Danzig, and
>>> Breslau were German cities since their founding, and neither Russians
>>> nor Poles have any entitlement to them. While there is no prospect of
>>> recovering them, it does not follow that the theft should be
>>> "accepted" as "legitimate". It wasn't legitimate when it was done, and
>>> it doesn't become legitimate as time passes. In AD 3009, Polish and
>>> German claims to Breslau would be about equal, according to
>>> international law, assuming that Poland still holds the city a
>>> thousand years into the future.
>>>
>>>
>> Natonalism was an idea of late AD 1800. I can quarantee You that there 
>> will not be such thing in AD 3009. Nowadays there is EU and nowadays all 
>> those who wish to live in Wroclaw or in Gdansk can do so with same 
>> taxation and same civil rights not dependend of their origin. There is no 
>> need for old time nationalism in Europe anymore and no need for 
>> nationalist political parties.
>>
>> Topi
>
>We still have very clear examples of just what those nationalist policies 
>lead to, in the trials for the recent wars in Serbia and Kosovo and the 
>former Yugoslavia, and the Bosnian genocide.

Yugoslavia was another Versailles creation, just like Czechoslovakia
and Poland. Each of these Versailles states created humanitarian
catastrophes. They were OBVIOUS mistakes even on the day they were
created, but that seems to be par for the course with British/allied
state making. Iraq/Kuwait is also a British creation. The Middle East
fiasco is a British creation via the Balfour declaration where, in
typical British fashion, they generously gave away land that didn't
belong to them.


>
>This is, ultimately, the kind of thing that Heinrich is promoting, though he 
>tries to deny that, too.
>
>-pk
>
>
>
>
>
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:55 EDT 2009
Article: 2007034 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
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Subject: Re: Ugo Voigt, Questions Ho£ocau$tT Toll, Demands Return of German Land
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On Thu, 9 Apr 2009 22:16:02 +0300, "Toivo Kottarainen"
 wrote:

>
>"Patrick Keenan"  kirjoitti 
>viestissä:R_ednRbbGoNgoEPUnZ2dnUVZ_oidnZ2d@supernews.com...
>> "Toivo Kottarainen"  wrote in message 
>> news:49de361f$0$26329$9b536df3@news.fv.fi...
>>>
>>> "Johannes von Ebersdorf"  kirjoitti 
>>> viestissä:f54st4lh33mbst37uqsl296odpvn0am6dg@4ax.com...
>>>> On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 17:18:10 +0200, "Heinrich" 
>>>> wrote:
>>
>> We still have very clear examples of just what those nationalist policies 
>> lead to, in the trials for the recent wars in Serbia and Kosovo and the 
>> former Yugoslavia, and the Bosnian genocide.
>>
>> This is, ultimately, the kind of thing that Heinrich is promoting, though 
>> he tries to deny that, too.
>>
>> -pk
>
>There are people in Finland that want the regions stolen fom us during the 
>wars annexed back to Finland.. The Carelian Peninsula, Salla district, 
>Petchenga (Petsamo) and the islands in the Gulf of Finland. They are a 
>minimal group.
>
>We know as a Nation that that was wrong.

That is exactly how millions of Germans feel about Russian, Polish and
Czech seizures in the east. There is the additional dimension of
ethnic cleansing in which 14 million people were driven from their
homes and only 10 million survived. That is a hell of a lot harder to
forgive than just the loss of some territory.

In my opinion, the Poles got their pound of flesh in 1945, and no Pole
should ever be allowed to cross into Germany and no Polish goods or
commerce should be able to go through Germany. The same goes for the
Czechs. Both populations should be allowed to live in Uganda-like
poverty and anguish from now until the end of the world. Personally,
if I notice that something comes from either place, it goes back onto
the store shelf. When I encounter a Pole or Czech it takes huge
self-control to avoid the urge to spit in their face.




> But the majority of us thinks that 
>let it be so. Russians live there now and it´s their home.
>
>We live now in peace with all our neigbours, there are no foreingn troops on 
>our soil and we do our own decisions.We are waiting for the day that the 
>border to Russia be as open as the borders to Norway and Sweden.
>
>Topi 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:55 EDT 2009
Article: 2007037 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish Plan To Exterminate the German Race Via Mass Sterilisation
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On Thu, 9 Apr 2009 18:08:24 +0200, "Heinrich" 
wrote:

>Germany Must Perish! is the title of a 104-page book written by Theodore N. 
>Kaufman (Jew) and self-published in 1941, which advocates the sterilization 
>of all Germans, and the territorial dismemberment of Germany. Kaufman 
>founded the Argyle Press of Newark, New Jersey, USA, in order to 
>self-publish his sentiments

Perhaps Hitler read Kaufman's absurd diatribe and decided to head them
off at the pass? Naturally, racists such as McVay/McFee and the whole
tribe will think that Kaufman's rantings are great.

>
>Extract from the book.
>
>"There remains then but one mode of ridding the world forever of Germanism - 
>and that is to stem the source from which issue those war-lusted souls, by 
>preventing the people of Germany from ever again reproducing their kind. 
>This modern method, known to science as Eugenic Sterilization, is at once 
>practical, humane and thorough. Sterilization has become a byword of 
>science, as the best means of ridding the human race of its misfits: the 
>degenerate, the insane, the hereditary criminal.
>
>When one realizes that such health measures as vaccination and serum 
>treatments are considered as direct benefits to the community, certainly 
>sterilization of the German people cannot but be considered a great health 
>measure promoted by humanity to immunize itself forever against the virus of 
>Germanism. The population of Germany, excluding conquered and annexed 
>territories, is about 70,000,000, almost equally divided between male and 
>female. To achieve the purpose of German extinction it would be necessary to 
>only sterilize some 48,000,000 - a figure which excludes, because of their 
>limited power to procreate, males over 60 years of age, and females over 45.
>
>Concerning the males subject to sterilization the army groups, as organized 
>units, would be the easiest and quickest to deal with. Taking 20,000 
>surgeons as an arbitrary number and on the assumption that each will perform 
>a minimum of 25 operations daily, it would take no more than one month, at 
>the maximum, to complete their sterilization. Naturally the more doctors 
>available, and many more than the 20,000 we mention would be available 
>considering all the nations to be drawn upon, the less time would be 
>required. The balance of the male civilian population of Germany could be 
>treated within three months. Inasmuch as the sterilization of women needs 
>somewhat more time, it may be computed that the entire female population of 
>Germany could be sterilized within a period of three years or less. Complete 
>sterilization of both sexes, and not only one, is to be considered necessary 
>in view of the present German doctrine that so much as one drop of true 
>German blood constitutes a German.
>
>Of course, after compete sterilization there will cease to be a birth rate 
>in Germany. At the normal death rate of 2% per annum, German life will 
>diminish at the rate of 1,500,000 yearly. Accordingly in the span of two 
>generations, that which cost millions of lives and centuries of useless 
>effort, namely, the elimination of Germanism and its carriers, will have 
>been accomplished fact."
>
>The Jew Kaufmann has thought out every last detail of his sterilization 
>plan. He makes the following proposals:
>
>1. The German army will be immediately and totally disarmed, and all weapons 
>will be removed from German territory.
>
>2. All German facilities and industrial plans will be placed under strong 
>guard. All German workers will be replaced by workers from Allied nations.
>
>3. The German army will be divided into groups that will be segregated in 
>strictly separated regions and sterilized.
>
>4. The civilian population, women as well as men, will be organized within 
>given areas and also sterilized.
>
>5. After sterilization, the German army will be divided into work brigades 
>and used to rebuild destroyed cities.
>
>6. Germany will be partitioned and its territory given to neighboring 
>states.
>
>7. Germans will not be allowed to travel beyond the established borders 
>until the completion of sterilization.
>
>8. The German population of the partitions will be forced to learn the 
>language of their new country. Within a year, the publication of all books, 
>newspapers and announcements in German will be prohibited, as will 
>broadcasts in German and the teaching of the German language.
>
>9. The only Germans exempt from sterilization will be those with relatives 
>in the victorious nations who will undertake financial responsibility for 
>their emigration and support, as well as moral responsibility for their 
>actions.
>
>LINKS FOR FURTHER READING
>http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/ds15.htm


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:55 EDT 2009
Article: 2007113 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Demjanjuk: 29,000 murder charges
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On Thu, 9 Apr 2009 20:30:10 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
wrote:

>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:k9ust4t4076egnp6aratma1qmej01b81p4@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 9 Apr 2009 14:44:31 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>news:qu0st4t8s8aq2rlhtru0febkp3p4pe9ogk@4ax.com...
>>>> On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 18:33:55 +0300, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
>>>> Holman) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In article ,
>>>>>ebersdorf@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> >You obviously do not have to believe anything I say, although you and
>>>>>> >I both know that I have no "assignment" here.  Irving's problems
>>>>>> >though were not in an allied court.  You should read up on the 
>>>>>> >lawsuit
>>>>>> >he lost.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A British court is not an impartial institution since it is part of a
>>>>>> system that has a vested interest in the allied version of WW1 and
>>>>>> WW2.
>>>>>
>>>>>The issue at stake was not the allied or any other version of WW I and 
>>>>>WW
>>>>>II. It was whether Deborah Lipstadt had, as alleged by David Irving,
>>>>>libeled David Irving when she defamed him, justifying her defamatory
>>>>>claims with examples, as a dishonest historian in her book *Denying the
>>>>>Holocaust. The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory*.
>>>>>
>>>>>The outcome of the trial was essentially the following:
>>>>>
>>>>>1. David Irving informed the court that although he had held more 
>>>>>extreme
>>>>>views when Deborah Lipstadt had published her book in 1993, as of the
>>>>>trial, in spring 2000, he did not deny that the Nazis systematically
>>>>>killed millions of European Jews, but he did question whether this 
>>>>>killing
>>>>>was a matter of state policy, whether Hitler was initially aware of the
>>>>>killing or, when he found out about it, of its extent, and whether gas
>>>>>chambers, the existence and homicidal use of which David Irving did not
>>>>>deny, were used to the extent claimed in the standard literature.
>>>>>
>>>>>2. David Irving was unable to demonstrate ti the court that any of the
>>>>>critical claims Lipstadt had made about his methodology and writings 
>>>>>were
>>>>>untrue or malicious and thus either unjustified or libelous.
>>>>>
>>>>>3. David Irving's two expert witnesses informed the court that they were
>>>>>in general agreement with Deborah Lipstadt's criticism of Irving's
>>>>>unprofessionalism.
>>>>>
>>>>>4. Deborah Lipstadt's defense team was able to produce dozens more
>>>>>examples, some of them from writings that had nothing to do with
>>>>>Holocaust-related issues,  of David Irving's dishonesty as a historian,
>>>>>thus further supporting her criticism of his lack of professional 
>>>>>ethics.
>>>>>
>>>>>Since it was a libel trial, and David Irving was unable to demonstrate 
>>>>>to
>>>>>the court that even a single critical claim made by Deborah Lipstadt 
>>>>>about
>>>>>his dishonesty as a historian was both demonstrably untrue and 
>>>>>malicious,
>>>>>he lost that case. Justified professional criticism is, by its very
>>>>>definition, defamatory, but not libelous.
>>>>>
>>>>>This has nothing to do with the court's "vested interest" in upholding a
>>>>>certain version of historical events. David Irving's professional
>>>>>practices and writings were subjected to demonstrably true and justified
>>>>>professional criticism. He reacted by suing his critic for libel, in the
>>>>>hope of silencing her and preventing such criticism from becoming known 
>>>>>to
>>>>>a wider audience. Even pleading his own case in court, Daviud Irving was
>>>>>unable to demonstrate that anything written about him by Deborah 
>>>>>Lipstadt
>>>>>had been libelous, while Deborah Lipstadt's team succeeded in
>>>>>demonstrating to the court that the few examples discussed in her book
>>>>>were merely a small sample of a much longer and frequent pattern of
>>>>>systematic professional misconduct, an assessment with which David
>>>>>Irving's own expert witnesses had no difficulty agreeing.
>>>>>
>>>>>If you make yoourself guilty of easily verified professional misconduct
>>>>>and someone blows the whistle on you, you have only yourself to blame if
>>>>>you sue the whistleblower for libel, hoping to silence your critic, and
>>>>>lose.
>>>>>
>>>>>Judge Charles Gray had no other alternative than rule that David Irving
>>>>>had not been libeled, for which reason Irving, by definition, 
>>>>>demonstrated
>>>>>himself to be a dishonest historian, just as Deborah Lipstadt had 
>>>>>claimed.
>>>>
>>>> It was a political judgement made by a politically motivated court.
>>>
>>>No, it was a legal decision made in a court biased towards the person who
>>>brought the action - Irving.
>>
>> It is really tough to win a libel action in Britain.
>
>Well, that would be true anywhere, when the defendant is speaking the truth 
>and can prove it with the plaintiff's own words.   But in the UK, it's a lot 
>easier than in North America.
>
>The absolute defence against a libel action is of course that there is a 
>statement of truth, and Lipstadt and Penguin were able to prove that 
>Lipstadt had written, and Penguin had published, the truth about Irving.
>
>> It would have been easier in Canada because here the law actually DOES 
>> side with the
>> plaintiff, but not in Britain.
>
>Sorry, but Irving chose to file in the UK specifically because the courts 
>are biased towards the plaintiff, in this case Irving.
>
>In Canada and the US,

Anytime you lump Canadian and American laws together, the chances are
very good that you are wrong. The American and Canadian legal systems
have very little in common.


> it is necessary for the plaintiff, in this case 
>Irving, to prove that he or she HAS BEEN defamed.
>
>In the UK, it's reversed.   It's the defendant who has to prove that they 
>HAVE NOT defamed the plaintiff.
>
>And this is what cause the legal expenses to be as high as they were:  In 
>order to show that they HAD NOT defamed Irving, Lipstadt and Penguin had to 
>produce a comprehensive and exhaustive defence that showed that Lipstadt had 
>written, and Penguin had published, the truth.
>
>Irving made the foolish choice to try to bully people who have the spine to 
>stand up for their statements.   He was not remotely able to show that he 
>had been defamed.
>
>And again, Irving was trying to suppress freedom of speech.    And again, 
>not a word from you on that issue.
>
>-pk
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>Lipstadt's lawyers showed that her evaluation of Irving was justified 
>>>based
>>>on Irving's own writings.
>>>
>>>Irving completely and utterly failed to counter this.   He didn't appear 
>>>to
>>>even know how to try to explain his own words.
>>>
>>>There was absolutely no need for politics.   The facts were more than
>>>sufficient.
>>>
>>>> There are no surprises there.
>>>
>>>And it isn't a surprise that you must pretend that this is anything other
>>>than Irving going to court with a very, very weak case.
>>>
>>>He tried to bully people who were exercising their rights to speech.   His
>>>own words showed that Lipstadt's evaluation was correct.
>>>
>>>If you *want* to apply a political cast to this, look at it this way: 
>>>The
>>>Court supported Ms. Lipstadt's rights to free speech.
>>>
>>>You are one of those guys who likes to pretend you're in favour of free
>>>speech, aren't you?
>>>
>>>-pk
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Regards,
>>>>>Eugene Holman
>>> 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:56 EDT 2009
Article: 2007114 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
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Subject: Re: Demjanjuk: 29,000 murder charges
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On Fri, 10 Apr 2009 10:01:00 +0300, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
Holman) wrote:

>In article ,
>ebersdorf@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 9 Apr 2009 15:04:43 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
>> wrote:
>> 
>
>
>> >Irving had been sued for libel previously, in 1968 by Captain K E Broome. 
>> >Irving lost then, too.
>> 
>> LOL
>> 
>> I was just finishing my education then, before I started working, so I
>> have never heard of Mr. Broome or his complaint.
>> 
>> I assume that a Google search will cause Mr. Broome to surface, or is
>> he one of your inventions?
>
>Why not check out David Irving's own website, http://www.fpp.co.uk? Irving
>has no difficulty admitting that he lost the libel suit initiated against
>him by Commander Jack Broome, although he rationalizes the loss by
>accusing the British court system of being biased against him.

He may have a point. After all, Britain does have a vested interest in
upholding its version of the "history" of WW2.

>
>Wikipedia summarizes the issue as following:
>
>Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Irving
>
>
>Also in 1967, he published two more works: The Virus House, an account of
>the German nuclear energy project, and The Destruction of Convoy PQ-17, in
>which he blamed the British escort group commander, Commander Jack Broome
>for the catastrophic losses of the Convoy PQ-17. Amid much publicity,
>Broome sued Irving for libel in October 1968, and in February 1970, after
>17 days of deliberation before London's High Court, Broome won. Irving was
>forced to pay £40,000 in damages, and the book was withdrawn from
>circulation.
>
>
>This was not the only instance in which David Irving found himself in the
>courtroom for his "real history". His methodology of historiography, or
>lack thereof, was well known before he became interested in the Holocaust.
>
>>
>
>Regards,
>Eugene Holman


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:56 EDT 2009
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On Thu, 09 Apr 2009 17:28:33 -0700, Klaus Schadenfreude
 wrote:

>In talk.politics.guns Topaz  wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 09 Apr 2009 03:50:31 -0700, Klaus Schadenfreude
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Sure they do. They prove that nazi windbags like yourself are high on
>>>glue and completely unable to support their nazi bullshit with facts.
>>>
>>>For instance, I supplied documented proof that Goebbels was a liar.
>>
>> You only proved you had your head up a Jews aft end.
>
>I provided documented evidence.
>You fall back on blaming everything on the Jews.
>
>I win by default.

Sorry Klaus, but all I've seen from you are puerile, elementary-school
style insults. Your stuff is not very convincing.



From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:57 EDT 2009
Article: 2007118 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Massengrab mit 4.500 Soldaten entdeckt
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Fri, 10 Apr 2009 13:45:19 +0300, "Toivo Kottarainen"
 wrote:

>
>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  kirjoitti 
>viestissä:8qust492al7p9n22m9f8leagm2o93h17nt@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 9 Apr 2009 18:42:10 +0300, "Toivo Kottarainen"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  kirjoitti
>>>viestissä:g52st41vouvg7pm6j3qat66kuhsojk7jkn@4ax.com...
>>>> On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 17:30:39 +0300, "Toivo Kottarainen"
>>>>  wrote:
>>>>
>>
>> Lenin expected the Red Finns to win, but Germans inferfered with that
>> projection.
>>
>>> The border lines were recocnized in 1920 in Tarto,
>>>Estonia. Mannerheim was a former Czars general but of Finnish origin.
>>
>> Actually the guy was Swedish, Topi.
>>
>He expected socialism to win everywhere but the independence of Finland was 
>according to his policy.
>
>Finland is a bilingual country by history. C.G.E. Mannerheim was Finnish 
>altough his native language was swedish. We don´t make a difference in that 
>point. Other official languages in Finland nowadays are sami, romani and 
>sign language. Every one of those people are entitled to get education and 
>service by the authorities in their own language.

That's very egalitarian, if somewhat costly.

>
>Topi 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:57 EDT 2009
Article: 2007122 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ugo Voigt, Questions Ho£ocau$tT Toll, Demands Return of German Land
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Thu, 9 Apr 2009 17:46:55 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
wrote:

>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:ek6st4dpluknc9ulfqbkq6jvpfi6rl4vrk@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 21:42:13 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Alexander"  wrote in message
>>>news:745106F1209s8U1@mid.individual.net...
>>>> Patrick Keenan wrote:
>>>>> "Heinrich"  wrote in message
>>>>> news:743thhF10h8hdU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1572234/Udo-Voigt-neo-Nazi-questions-Auschwitz-toll.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.ejpress.org/article/news/western_europe/22421
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The head of the German neo-Nazi party NPD, Udo Voigt, has questioned 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> number of Holocaust deaths and demanded the return of German land lost
>>>>>> after World War II, in an interview to be broadcast on Monday.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Six million cannot be right. At most, 340,000 people could have died 
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> Auschwitz," Voigt said in excerpts from the interview that were 
>>>>>> released
>>>>>> in advance.
>>>>>
>>>>> Though of course he carefully gives no justification for this number,
>>>>> which isn't supported by facts.
>>>>>
>>>>>> "The Jews always say: 'Even if one Jew died that is a crime.' But of
>>>>>> course it makes a difference whether one has to pay for six million
>>>>>> people or for 340,000," the head of the National Democratic Party 
>>>>>> added.
>>>>>
>>>>> One might note that the reparations to Israel are not - and were 
>>>>> never -
>>>>> based on the number who died, but on the number who *survived*.
>>>>>
>>>>> If Mr Voigt wants to prove that the survivors *were actually killed*,
>>>>> which is what would reduce the reparations payments, now would be the
>>>>> time to show his work.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Voigt also demanded the return of "Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania,
>>>>>> Western Prussia, Eastern Prussia and Silesia, regardless of whether it
>>>>>> is Koenigsberg (Kaliningrad), Danzig (Gdansk) or Breslau (Wroclaw). 
>>>>>> "All
>>>>>> these cities are German in our view, and we demand to exercise our
>>>>>> rights over them."
>>>>>
>>>>> He's entitled to his view.   That doesn't mean he's also entitled to 
>>>>> take
>>>>> the property of others.\
>>>>
>>>> That is exactly what we have all said of the Jews and horses asses like
>>>> you that back their murderous land grabs.
>>>
>>>Again:  If Mr Voigt wants to prove that the survivors *were actually
>>>killed*, which  is what would reduce the reparations payments, now would 
>>>be
>>>the time to show
>>>his work.
>>
>> The survivors didn't get much money. It was the Israeli Zionists and
>> other Jewish political organizations which are the big beneficiaries
>> of this extortion racket.
>
>Apparently you don't understand the payments, but no, survivors individually 
>didn't get much money.
>
>It's hardly extortion.   The Bundestag, to its credit, understands and 
>accepts that it bears political and moral responsibility for the crimes 
>committed by the National Socialist government.

The Bundestag has absolutely no responsibility for crimes, real or
imaginary, that occurred before the Bundestag even existed during the
government of a political party that no longer exists. The Bundestag
simply caved in to allied threats and pressure. That is essentially
extortion.

>    Unlike some other 
>governments, it's not trying to pretend that those crimes did not occur.
>
>And the terms were not like the wholly unrealistic, and stupidly punitive, 
>reparations imposed at Versailles.
>
>> If somebody can reasonably PROVE that they suffered under the NS
>> regime, then compensation is reasonable.
>
>And lots of people can do exactly that, but lack the ability to work 
>individually through court systems.     Attempts to litigate individuially 
>might conceivably have the effect of converting a large portion of the 
>German economy into a law firm, and that's not really a good idea.
>
>> I just object to throwing money at Zionists who use it to buy arms to 
>> murder more children in
>> the Middle East.
>
>Which of course is not what that money is used for, but why let facts stand 
>in the way of a slogan?

Norman Finkelstein's principal complaint is exactly that the survivors
saw virtually none of the huge sums that were collected and redirected
by these so-called Jewish agencies. The whole structure is fraudulent,
and one can fairly say that the BRD has been swindled.

>
>It's interesting that you have nothing to say about any of the other parties 
>in that tragic conflict, though it is clear that there blame all the way 
>around.
>
>-pk
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>-pk
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -pk
>>>>>
>>>>> 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:57 EDT 2009
Article: 2007124 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ugo Voigt, Questions Ho£ocau$tT Toll, Demands Return of German Land
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On Thu, 9 Apr 2009 20:28:46 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
wrote:

>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:d00tt4tuhfef2fhdg5v8te07sehpe0l4o2@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 9 Apr 2009 14:19:51 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>news:796st41cb1kkhfdqv4benngbr0vldbmkmt@4ax.com...
>>>> On Wed, 8 Apr 2009 17:24:42 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>"Heinrich"  wrote in message
>>>>>news:743thhF10h8hdU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>>> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1572234/Udo-Voigt-neo-Nazi-questions-Auschwitz-toll.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.ejpress.org/article/news/western_europe/22421
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The head of the German neo-Nazi party NPD, Udo Voigt, has questioned 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> number of Holocaust deaths and demanded the return of German land lost
>>>>>> after World War II, in an interview to be broadcast on Monday.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Six million cannot be right. At most, 340,000 people could have died 
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> Auschwitz," Voigt said in excerpts from the interview that were 
>>>>>> released
>>>>>> in advance.
>>>>>
>>>>>Though of course he carefully gives no justification for this number,
>>>>>which
>>>>>isn't supported by facts.
>>>>
>>>> Actually, Voigt's numbers for Auschwitz are probably gross
>>>> exaggerations since they contradict the camp records released by the
>>>> USSR a few years ago by a factor of 5. Unless you come up with a
>>>> really convincing argument as to why the German authorities would
>>>> spend time and effort to keep false records for themselves,
>>>
>>>They aren't false records they kept for themselves.
>>>
>>>And they are not complete records of everything that went on in the camps.
>>
>> Incomplete records are automatically false records.
>
>No, they are simply incomplete records.
>
>They only become false when someone like you pretends that they represent 
>something that they never represented.
>
>> It simply isn't
>> the German way of doing business.
>
>And failure to plan for well-known and predictable events like a Russian 
>winter IS the "German way of doing business"?
>
>I'm sure the Nazis would have appreciated your administrative expertise.
>
>>>
>>>I suspect you know perfectly well that these records are not what you
>>>pretend that they are.
>>>
>>>
>>>> I will
>>>> continue to regard the camp records as authoritative. Keeping false
>>>> records for yourself makes no sense.
>>>
>>>As far as making sense, do you think that invading Russia in late summer 
>>>and
>>>refusing to equip your troops with winter gear makes sense?
>>
>> LOL
>>
>> I guess they should have hired a mental giant like you to be a field
>> marshall, and everything would have worked out differently.
>
>I'm not the one pretending that the records of registered prisoners are the 
>records of all those who arrived at the camps.   I'm not the one who ignores 
>the fact that Russia is a rather large place, or that its winters come early 
>and are not gentle.
>
>And I'm not the one ignoring the fact that Hitler sent his troops into 
>Russia without preparation, and then abandoned them there.
>
>> The fact is that they had not expected to still be in the area once
>> winter hit.
>
>Perhaps you are a little bit unfamiliar with geography.   Are you thinking 
>that they would have arrived in Honolulu by start of winter?
>
>> Material of all sorts had been in short supply since day
>> one, which is one reason I take allied claims that Germany launched
>> this war with a large grain of salt.
>
>And yet, Hitler  required that the war be launched, despite the objections 
>of his generals.

Hitler didn't "require the war to be launched". That decision was made
in London with somewhat reluctant participation by Paris. There were
no objections to the Polish campaign, since Poland had already
effectively declared war by ordering general mobilization of August
25.
>
>> They would have been prepared for
>> a long, big war by 1944, but not in 1939.
>
>And yet, Hitler  required that the war be launched, despite the objections 
>of his generals.
>
>> That is exactly why Britain
>> and France picked 1939 to arrange for their war.
>
>Sorry, but it was Hitler who gave the order to invade Poland.

Poland was irrelevant. It was an excuse manufactured by the British, a
country that has never been overly concerned about the independence of
small states. If not Poland, then some other excuse would have been
found. Poland was a "stolen property recovery" operation, and Germany
was perfectly justified.

>
>And still, it was Hitler who made the stupid decision to send his armies 
>into Russia in late summer without any provisions for winter gear.

They were in the suburbs of Moscow BEFORE the winter hit. When things
took too long, OKW wanted to withdraw the troops to warmer areas and
advance again in the spring. Hitler, the amateur general, considered
the propaganda implications more important than the military issues,
and the result was disaster.

>
>This was not a decision that makes sense.
>
>Does the name Bonaparte mean anything to you?
>
>>>The records you refer to only account for *registered prisoners*, but you
>>>already know that, don't you?
>>
>> I know all about the claims that they supposedly only bothered to
>> record the occasional prisoner,
>
>Oh please.   Try cleaving at least near to the facts.
>
>>  a claim that makes as much sense as
>> the Royal Bank of Canada only bothering to record the occasional
>> deposit or withdrawal.  That approach would make ALL the records
>> worthless, and they wouldn't have bothered to keep any records at all,
>> because the ones they would have would be totally worthless.
>
>Your analogy is false, like so many of your claims.   And as usual, it's 
>very easy to drive right through the hole in it.

You have failed to do that yet. Keep trying though.

>
>The Royal Bank does not record deposits or withdrawls made for other banks 
>on their own books, even when the deposits or withdrawls are made at a 
>teller machine *located in a Royal Bank*.    But this does not make the 
>Royal Bank's records worthless.   It only means that the Royal Bank records 
>the money that comes into the Royal Bank, not into other banks.
>
>Prisoners who were selected to be kept alive and assigned work were 
>registered, and appeared on the books.   Those who were not selected for 
>work were not registered, and do not appear on the books.   But they *do* 
>appear on the transport records coming in.
>
>They were recorded as being rounded up, are recorded as being transported to 
>the camp, arrive at the camp, but are not registered, and are never seen or 
>heard from again.
>
>Now would be the time for you to identify where, exactly, those who were 
>transported to the camp but were not registered and of whom there is no 
>record of transport out, are.
>
>
>-pk
>
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>Those who arrived at Auschwitz and were not selected for labour were not
>>>registered as prisoners, were not recorded in these books, were killed 
>>>more
>>>or less immediately, and do not appear on camp records otherwise.
>>>
>>>They appear on other non-camp records, such as the transport records.
>>>
>>>The Soviet records aren't false, they are accurate for what they are; but
>>>they just aren't a record of what you pretend they are a record of.
>>>
>>>Now, if you wanted to do something towards lowering the reparations
>>>payments, you'd be trying to get the death toll numbers higher, as the
>>>reparations were based on the number of *survivors*, not on the number of
>>>*deaths*.
>>>
>>>What you are arguing, without apparently realizing it,  is that the
>>>reparations payments to Israel are too low.
>>>
>>>-pk
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "The Jews always say: 'Even if one Jew died that is a crime.' But of
>>>>>> course it makes a difference whether one has to pay for six million
>>>>>> people
>>>>>> or for 340,000," the head of the National Democratic Party added.
>>>>>
>>>>>One might note that the reparations to Israel are not - and were never -
>>>>>based on the number who died, but on the number who *survived*.
>>>>>
>>>>>If Mr Voigt wants to prove that the survivors *were actually killed*,
>>>>>which
>>>>>is what would reduce the reparations payments, now would be the time to
>>>>>show
>>>>>his work.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Voigt also demanded the return of "Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania,
>>>>>> Western
>>>>>> Prussia, Eastern Prussia and Silesia, regardless of whether it is
>>>>>> Koenigsberg (Kaliningrad), Danzig (Gdansk) or Breslau (Wroclaw). "All
>>>>>> these cities are German in our view, and we demand to exercise our
>>>>>> rights
>>>>>> over them."
>>>>>
>>>>>He's entitled to his view.   That doesn't mean he's also entitled to 
>>>>>take
>>>>>the property of others.
>>>>>
>>>>>-pk
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:58 EDT 2009
Article: 2007126 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ugo Voigt, Questions Ho£ocau$tT Toll, Demands Return of German Land
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On Fri, 10 Apr 2009 14:11:37 +0300, "Toivo Kottarainen"
 wrote:

>
>"RJ11"  kirjoitti viestissä:grmtoe$oij$1@pcls6.std.com...
>> In article <1b1tt41o8jcvi3bi2mt5mm6oqf5e4tspp1@4ax.com>,
>> Johannes von Ebersdorf   wrote:
>>
>>> In my opinion, the Poles got their pound of flesh in 1945, and no Pole
>>> should ever be allowed to cross into Germany and no Polish goods or
>>> commerce should be able to go through Germany. The same goes for the
>>> Czechs. Both populations should be allowed to live in Uganda-like
>>> poverty and anguish from now until the end of the world.
>>
>>   Jesus Christ!  Reichsfuhrer Skaliks is going to war!
>>
>
>Why is Johannes von Ebersdorf called Skaliks ? Does it come from the past 
>years when I was not around.
>
>Topi 
>

The mental midgets surrounding McVay have this obsession about
skaliks, a poster who frequented this newsgroup about twenty years
ago.

Besides, the McVay idiots are so stupid that they cannot even count
back the years to realize that whatever happened during WW2 was way
before this person was even alive, and so he couldn't have been either
a Reichfuhrer (note the incompetent spelling) or any other official of
the period. As far as I know, even the guy's mother was only a young
girl when the war ended. I usually ignore any post that contains the
word "skaliks" as simple-minded baiting, but you seem like a
reasonable sort so you deserve some sort of explanation.

I rent accommodations in the guy's house and get to use his wireless
internet connection for my computer. So the mental midgets have put
together two and two to get five. 


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:59 EDT 2009
Article: 2007128 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: FREE DEMJANJUK! JAIL KADISH!
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Fri, 10 Apr 2009 00:47:01 -0700, "ÇDoügßT"  wrote:

>"Heinrich"  wrote in message 
>news:7466ckF1256vlU1@mid.individual.net...
>> ohn Demjanjuk, a model hard-working American, who already has spent 5 
>> years in solitary confinement in Israel, with the kid-glove treatment of 
>> Ben-ami Kadish, an admitted traitor and spy for Israel who has been 
>> allowed to plead guilty in return for probation.
>> http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2008/December/08-nsd-1154.html
>>
>
>You don't seem to like hispanics/latinos much do you Heine? 
>
You seem to be a German-hater, so what is your point?


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Fri Apr 10 17:51:59 EDT 2009
Article: 2007129 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jewish Plan To Exterminate the German Race Via Mass Sterilisation
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Fri, 10 Apr 2009 00:27:43 -0700 (PDT), "Jew - Defender & Nazi -
Killer"  wrote:

>Two comments:
>
>After all those years you finally come up with ONE Jew who proposes
>sterilisation in order to get rid of the German problem? If I find ONE
>German or ONE Canadian or ONE Dutchman who says something rather
>extreme, am I entitled to therefore propose killing ALL Germans, ALL
>Canadians and ALL Dutchmen?
>
>Secondly, it should be noted that I find Kaufmans solution of
>sterilization rather harmless when you notice that Germans already
>before 1941 had killed many Jews, gypsies, homosexuals and mentally
>handicapped people.

> I find Kaufmans response very civilised and measured.

You would. My estimation of you as a simple-minded genocidal bigot was
apparently accurate.

>
>On 9 apr, 18:08, "Heinrich"  wrote:
>> Germany Must Perish! is the title of a 104-page book written by Theodore N.
>> Kaufman (Jew) and self-published in 1941, which advocates the sterilization
>> of all Germans, and the territorial dismemberment of Germany. Kaufman
>> founded the Argyle Press of Newark, New Jersey, USA, in order to
>> self-publish his sentiments
>>
>> Extract from the book.
>>
>> "There remains then but one mode of ridding the world forever of Germanism -
>> and that is to stem the source from which issue those war-lusted souls, by
>> preventing the people of Germany from ever again reproducing their kind.
>> This modern method, known to science as Eugenic Sterilization, is at once
>> practical, humane and thorough. Sterilization has become a byword of
>> science, as the best means of ridding the human race of its misfits: the
>> degenerate, the insane, the hereditary criminal.
>>
>> When one realizes that such health measures as vaccination and serum
>> treatments are considered as direct benefits to the community, certainly
>> sterilization of the German people cannot but be considered a great health
>> measure promoted by humanity to immunize itself forever against the virus of
>> Germanism. The population of Germany, excluding conquered and annexed
>> territories, is about 70,000,000, almost equally divided between male and
>> female. To achieve the purpose of German extinction it would be necessary to
>> only sterilize some 48,000,000 - a figure which excludes, because of their
>> limited power to procreate, males over 60 years of age, and females over 45.
>>
>> Concerning the males subject to sterilization the army groups, as organized
>> units, would be the easiest and quickest to deal with. Taking 20,000
>> surgeons as an arbitrary number and on the assumption that each will perform
>> a minimum of 25 operations daily, it would take no more than one month, at
>> the maximum, to complete their sterilization. Naturally the more doctors
>> available, and many more than the 20,000 we mention would be available
>> considering all the nations to be drawn upon, the less time would be
>> required. The balance of the male civilian population of Germany could be
>> treated within three months. Inasmuch as the sterilization of women needs
>> somewhat more time, it may be computed that the entire female population of
>> Germany could be sterilized within a period of three years or less. Complete
>> sterilization of both sexes, and not only one, is to be considered necessary
>> in view of the present German doctrine that so much as one drop of true
>> German blood constitutes a German.
>>
>> Of course, after compete sterilization there will cease to be a birth rate
>> in Germany. At the normal death rate of 2% per annum, German life will
>> diminish at the rate of 1,500,000 yearly. Accordingly in the span of two
>> generations, that which cost millions of lives and centuries of useless
>> effort, namely, the elimination of Germanism and its carriers, will have
>> been accomplished fact."
>>
>> The Jew Kaufmann has thought out every last detail of his sterilization
>> plan. He makes the following proposals:
>>
>> 1. The German army will be immediately and totally disarmed, and all weapons
>> will be removed from German territory.
>>
>> 2. All German facilities and industrial plans will be placed under strong
>> guard. All German workers will be replaced by workers from Allied nations.
>>
>> 3. The German army will be divided into groups that will be segregated in
>> strictly separated regions and sterilized.
>>
>> 4. The civilian population, women as well as men, will be organized within
>> given areas and also sterilized.
>>
>> 5. After sterilization, the German army will be divided into work brigades
>> and used to rebuild destroyed cities.
>>
>> 6. Germany will be partitioned and its territory given to neighboring
>> states.
>>
>> 7. Germans will not be allowed to travel beyond the established borders
>> until the completion of sterilization.
>>
>> 8. The German population of the partitions will be forced to learn the
>> language of their new country. Within a year, the publication of all books,
>> newspapers and announcements in German will be prohibited, as will
>> broadcasts in German and the teaching of the German language.
>>
>> 9. The only Germans exempt from sterilization will be those with relatives
>> in the victorious nations who will undertake financial responsibility for
>> their emigration and support, as well as moral responsibility for their
>> actions.
>>
>> LINKS FOR FURTHER READINGhttp://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/ds15.htm


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Sat Apr 11 13:59:03 EDT 2009
Article: 2007364 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Demjanjuk: 29,000 murder charges
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On Fri, 10 Apr 2009 13:34:19 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
wrote:

>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:0ulut418acjbqdm7aiu99qpiet9276dup9@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 9 Apr 2009 20:30:10 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>news:k9ust4t4076egnp6aratma1qmej01b81p4@4ax.com...
>>>> On Thu, 9 Apr 2009 14:44:31 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>>>news:qu0st4t8s8aq2rlhtru0febkp3p4pe9ogk@4ax.com...
>>>>>> On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 18:33:55 +0300, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
>>>>>> Holman) wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In article ,
>>>>>>>ebersdorf@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> >You obviously do not have to believe anything I say, although you 
>>>>>>>> >and
>>>>>>>> >I both know that I have no "assignment" here.  Irving's problems
>>>>>>>> >though were not in an allied court.  You should read up on the
>>>>>>>> >lawsuit
>>>>>>>> >he lost.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A British court is not an impartial institution since it is part of 
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> system that has a vested interest in the allied version of WW1 and
>>>>>>>> WW2.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The issue at stake was not the allied or any other version of WW I and
>>>>>>>WW
>>>>>>>II. It was whether Deborah Lipstadt had, as alleged by David Irving,
>>>>>>>libeled David Irving when she defamed him, justifying her defamatory
>>>>>>>claims with examples, as a dishonest historian in her book *Denying 
>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>Holocaust. The Growing Assault on Truth and Memory*.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The outcome of the trial was essentially the following:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>1. David Irving informed the court that although he had held more
>>>>>>>extreme
>>>>>>>views when Deborah Lipstadt had published her book in 1993, as of the
>>>>>>>trial, in spring 2000, he did not deny that the Nazis systematically
>>>>>>>killed millions of European Jews, but he did question whether this
>>>>>>>killing
>>>>>>>was a matter of state policy, whether Hitler was initially aware of 
>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>killing or, when he found out about it, of its extent, and whether gas
>>>>>>>chambers, the existence and homicidal use of which David Irving did 
>>>>>>>not
>>>>>>>deny, were used to the extent claimed in the standard literature.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>2. David Irving was unable to demonstrate ti the court that any of the
>>>>>>>critical claims Lipstadt had made about his methodology and writings
>>>>>>>were
>>>>>>>untrue or malicious and thus either unjustified or libelous.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>3. David Irving's two expert witnesses informed the court that they 
>>>>>>>were
>>>>>>>in general agreement with Deborah Lipstadt's criticism of Irving's
>>>>>>>unprofessionalism.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>4. Deborah Lipstadt's defense team was able to produce dozens more
>>>>>>>examples, some of them from writings that had nothing to do with
>>>>>>>Holocaust-related issues,  of David Irving's dishonesty as a 
>>>>>>>historian,
>>>>>>>thus further supporting her criticism of his lack of professional
>>>>>>>ethics.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Since it was a libel trial, and David Irving was unable to demonstrate
>>>>>>>to
>>>>>>>the court that even a single critical claim made by Deborah Lipstadt
>>>>>>>about
>>>>>>>his dishonesty as a historian was both demonstrably untrue and
>>>>>>>malicious,
>>>>>>>he lost that case. Justified professional criticism is, by its very
>>>>>>>definition, defamatory, but not libelous.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>This has nothing to do with the court's "vested interest" in upholding 
>>>>>>>a
>>>>>>>certain version of historical events. David Irving's professional
>>>>>>>practices and writings were subjected to demonstrably true and 
>>>>>>>justified
>>>>>>>professional criticism. He reacted by suing his critic for libel, in 
>>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>hope of silencing her and preventing such criticism from becoming 
>>>>>>>known
>>>>>>>to
>>>>>>>a wider audience. Even pleading his own case in court, Daviud Irving 
>>>>>>>was
>>>>>>>unable to demonstrate that anything written about him by Deborah
>>>>>>>Lipstadt
>>>>>>>had been libelous, while Deborah Lipstadt's team succeeded in
>>>>>>>demonstrating to the court that the few examples discussed in her book
>>>>>>>were merely a small sample of a much longer and frequent pattern of
>>>>>>>systematic professional misconduct, an assessment with which David
>>>>>>>Irving's own expert witnesses had no difficulty agreeing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If you make yoourself guilty of easily verified professional 
>>>>>>>misconduct
>>>>>>>and someone blows the whistle on you, you have only yourself to blame 
>>>>>>>if
>>>>>>>you sue the whistleblower for libel, hoping to silence your critic, 
>>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>lose.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Judge Charles Gray had no other alternative than rule that David 
>>>>>>>Irving
>>>>>>>had not been libeled, for which reason Irving, by definition,
>>>>>>>demonstrated
>>>>>>>himself to be a dishonest historian, just as Deborah Lipstadt had
>>>>>>>claimed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It was a political judgement made by a politically motivated court.
>>>>>
>>>>>No, it was a legal decision made in a court biased towards the person 
>>>>>who
>>>>>brought the action - Irving.
>>>>
>>>> It is really tough to win a libel action in Britain.
>>>
>>>Well, that would be true anywhere, when the defendant is speaking the 
>>>truth
>>>and can prove it with the plaintiff's own words.   But in the UK, it's a 
>>>lot
>>>easier than in North America.
>>>
>>>The absolute defence against a libel action is of course that there is a
>>>statement of truth, and Lipstadt and Penguin were able to prove that
>>>Lipstadt had written, and Penguin had published, the truth about Irving.
>>>
>>>> It would have been easier in Canada because here the law actually DOES
>>>> side with the
>>>> plaintiff, but not in Britain.
>>>
>>>Sorry, but Irving chose to file in the UK specifically because the courts
>>>are biased towards the plaintiff, in this case Irving.
>>>
>>>In Canada and the US,
>>
>> Anytime you lump Canadian and American laws together, the chances are
>> very good that you are wrong. The American and Canadian legal systems
>> have very little in common.
>
>Well, for once you're right on  a point, but your premise is still wrong. 
>The bias of the court in Canada not as in the US, it is exactly the same as 
>in Britain- towards the plaintiff.   There is of course an exception for 
>actions filed under Quebec laws.
>
>Canada has a libel law structure based closely on the UK system,

You're only about a century out of date. Canadian laws are also quite
different from British laws. 

> presuming 
>that if the libel action is begun, it is justified.   The bias is towards 
>the plaintiff, the defendant must prove the truth (or privilege) of the 
>statements (again with exceptions in Quebec).

Laws in Britain have diverged from the original pattern, so that it
has become very difficult to win a libel action in the UK, but not
quite so difficult in Canada.

Try to avoid lecturing me on conditions in my own country. You are on
pretty thin ice when you try that.

>
>Irving chose to file in the UK rather than in the US, where Lipstadt lives 
>and where the book was published, because under both UK and Canadian libel 
>laws, there is an automatic assumption that the plaintiff has been 
>libelled - that what the defendant published is false - and that damages 
>have been incurred.
>
>In both the UK and Canadian (excepting Quebec) libel systems, the whole 
>burden of proof rests on the *defendant*.   This is why the court is biased 
>towards the plaintiff.   And this is why the Lipstadt / Penguin defence cost 
>so much, and why the costs award bankrupted Irving.
>
>In the US, the opposite holds. The *plaintiff* must prove that the published 
>material is false.   In the US system, the court is biased towards the 
>defendant, and that is why Irving chose to file in the UK
>
>And so we still see that your claim that "here the law actually DOES side 
>with the plaintiff, but not in Britain" is false.
>
>So once again, you made a false distinction, and attempted to base your 
>argument on it.
>
>HTH
>-pk
>
>
>>
>>
>>> it is necessary for the plaintiff, in this case
>>>Irving, to prove that he or she HAS BEEN defamed.
>>>
>>>In the UK, it's reversed.   It's the defendant who has to prove that they
>>>HAVE NOT defamed the plaintiff.
>>>
>>>And this is what cause the legal expenses to be as high as they were:  In
>>>order to show that they HAD NOT defamed Irving, Lipstadt and Penguin had 
>>>to
>>>produce a comprehensive and exhaustive defence that showed that Lipstadt 
>>>had
>>>written, and Penguin had published, the truth.
>>>
>>>Irving made the foolish choice to try to bully people who have the spine 
>>>to
>>>stand up for their statements.   He was not remotely able to show that he
>>>had been defamed.
>>>
>>>And again, Irving was trying to suppress freedom of speech.    And again,
>>>not a word from you on that issue.
>>>
>>>-pk
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Lipstadt's lawyers showed that her evaluation of Irving was justified
>>>>>based
>>>>>on Irving's own writings.
>>>>>
>>>>>Irving completely and utterly failed to counter this.   He didn't appear
>>>>>to
>>>>>even know how to try to explain his own words.
>>>>>
>>>>>There was absolutely no need for politics.   The facts were more than
>>>>>sufficient.
>>>>>
>>>>>> There are no surprises there.
>>>>>
>>>>>And it isn't a surprise that you must pretend that this is anything 
>>>>>other
>>>>>than Irving going to court with a very, very weak case.
>>>>>
>>>>>He tried to bully people who were exercising their rights to speech. 
>>>>>His
>>>>>own words showed that Lipstadt's evaluation was correct.
>>>>>
>>>>>If you *want* to apply a political cast to this, look at it this way:
>>>>>The
>>>>>Court supported Ms. Lipstadt's rights to free speech.
>>>>>
>>>>>You are one of those guys who likes to pretend you're in favour of free
>>>>>speech, aren't you?
>>>>>
>>>>>-pk
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Regards,
>>>>>>>Eugene Holman
>>>>>
>>> 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Sat Apr 11 13:59:04 EDT 2009
Article: 2007365 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Demjanjuk: 29,000 murder charges
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Fri, 10 Apr 2009 13:12:05 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
wrote:

>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:tcust4pimsvi8p0u8pv502oj7lc82p57ak@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 9 Apr 2009 15:04:43 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message
>>>news:941st4hebrqtul5e9bg39b30lhne10o7k8@4ax.com...
>>>> On Wed, 08 Apr 2009 08:26:57 +0300, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
>>>> Holman) wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In article , "Truthseeker"
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Amazing Eugene what a Jews team can to with all the money and power 
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> do
>>>>>> have over others. Honesty is something your friends have never done. 
>>>>>> How
>>>>>> much of an expert is your friend Mr van der Pelt ??. He sure known how
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> but on a show but he does not know the difference between an explosion
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> implosion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>David Irving made a career of writing dishonest history
>>>>
>>>> Irving had written all sorts of history books without a single peep of
>>>> complaint,
>>>
>>>Sorry, but this is false.
>>>
>>>Irving had been sued for libel previously, in 1968 by Captain K E Broome.
>>>Irving lost then, too.
>>
>> LOL
>
>You find it amusing that you are so easily shown to be wrong, I see.
>
>
>> I was just finishing my education then, before I started working, so I
>> have never heard of Mr. Broome or his complaint.
>
>And so you didn't bother to even check if your assertion was correct before 
>making it.
>
>How typical of you.
>
>Do you pretend that after your education was complete, you knew everything?

No, that is more your style.

>
>>
>> I assume that a Google search will cause Mr. Broome to surface, or is
>> he one of your inventions?
>
>This knowledge is not hidden, except from those who refuse to look.
>
>-pk
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>Being taken to court for libel could very well be interpreted as a "peep 
>>>of
>>>complaint", so your premise is false.
>>>
>>>Again.
>>>
>>>> until he made the mistake to stepping on the toes of the
>>>> holocaustT industry. He suddenly became an historical hack
>>>
>>>It wasn't sudden.
>>>
>>>> and was subjected to a world-wide campaign of vilification and character
>>>> assassination.
>>>
>>>Actually it was honest evaluation of his tactics, that Holocaust deniers 
>>>and
>>>"revisionists" mounted a campaign against.
>>>
>>>His real problems came when he decided that other people shouldn't have a
>>>right to free speech, and chose the wrong target to bully.
>>>
>>>He lost twice before a total of four judges, and he lost because Lipstadt
>>>wrote the truth about him.
>>>
>>>
>>>-pk
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> and then tried to
>>>>>use the British court system to prevent word of this from spreading when
>>>>>it was pointed out by a professional historian. He failed to do so, and
>>>>>now the entire world knows of his dishonesty. End of story.
>>>>>
>>>>>Regards,
>>>>>Eugene Holman
>>> 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Sat Apr 11 13:59:04 EDT 2009
Article: 2007366 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
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Subject: Re: Nazi guard a free man in Austria
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On Fri, 10 Apr 2009 13:45:15 -0400, Gord McFee 
wrote:

>On 4/7/2009 9:51 AM, Johannes von Ebersdorf wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 22:35:57 -0400, Gord McFee
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>> On Sun, 05 Apr 2009 19:23:23 -0400, in 
>>> , Doc Tony 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Gord McFee wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> On Sat, 04 Apr 2009 08:50:34 -0400, in 
>>>>> <8olet41l48jo8gqbcjcv5d176e352ut497@4ax.com>, Johannes von
>>>>> Ebersdorf  wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Thu, 02 Apr 2009 22:21:13 -0400, Gord McFee
>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 4/2/2009 3:48 PM, Johannes von Ebersdorf wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 1 Apr 2009 09:10:26 -0700 (PDT), Michael Ejercito
>>>>>>>>   wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Mar 30, 5:31 am, Johannes von Ebersdorf
>>>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 28 Mar 2009 11:50:09 -0700 (PDT),Michael
>>>>>>>>>> Ejercito
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 28, 5:57 am, Topaz 
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> by James Buchanan Let's say the Germans merely
>>>>>>>>>>>> removed the Jews from positions of political
>>>>>>>>>>>> power and banned them from the legal profession.
>>>>>>>>>>> How were things in Germany on May 1, 1945?
>>>>>>>>>> What is special about May 1?
>>>>>>>>> It was the day after Hitler killed himself.
>>>>>>>> The war continued unabated, and it was the German armed
>>>>>>>> services that decided a week later that it was
>>>>>>>> impractical to continue. The machinery of state continued
>>>>>>>> to function and a new chancellor was appointed in the
>>>>>>>> form of Grand Admiral Dönitz. There was nothing special
>>>>>>>> about May 1. It was May 8 that was the onset of the 
>>>>>>>> catastrophe for Germany. Far more people died AFTER May
>>>>>>>> 8, 1945 than had died between January 30, 1933 and May 8,
>>>>>>>> 1945. It was another one of those Iraqi-style allied
>>>>>>>> "liberations" that have now clearly become the pattern of
>>>>>>>> allied "liberations".
>>>>>>> I don't know what you are imbibing, but it must be illegal.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> LOL
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> When cornered, olde gourd accuses others of being druggies.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> It is pretty much common knowledge that the dying in Germany
>>>>>> basically started on May 8, 1945 putting all the war deaths
>>>>>> into shadow.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Really?  What is your support for that silly statement?
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> No doubt, Gord, the same "Papagei®" Ebe 'support' [cough-cough]
>>>> that caused Ebe to announce that the Führer was merely acting in
>>>>  "self-defense" [!] with the invasion of Poland because Ebe says
>>>> that it was a matter of common knowledge that the Poles were
>>>> "mobilizing" [!] weeks before September 1, 1939
>> 
>> Perhaps you could urge the arsehole who infests Darmstadt to read a 
>> few history books. Poland ordered general mobilization of
>> 25-Aug-1939, de facto a declaration of war against Germany. Germany
>> took over a week to respond, whereas American reaction to a similar
>> circumstance would be one hell of a lot quicker.
>
>I suppose with 2 million German soldiers massed on its border, one might
>understand why Poland ordered mobilization.

As usual, you create a false time-line to obfuscate the discussion.
Poland mobilized its army, an action that by European custom counts as
a declaration of war, and Germany did not respond for a week. When
Britain and France declared war on Germany in September of 1939,
Germany did not respond in any significant way until the spring and
summer of 1940. That sure doesn't sound like a bunch plotting the
takeover of the world, as allied propaganda would have it.

>
>
>
>Poland partly mobilized its troops on August 24, 1939, and fully
>mobilized on August 30, 1939, following the increased confrontations
>with Germany since March 1939. On September 1, 1939 Germany invaded
>Poland, which prompted both France and Britain to declare war on
>Germany. However, they were slow to mobilize, and by the time Poland had
>been overrun by the Axis powers, only minor operations had been carried
>out by the French at the Saar River.
>
>
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobilization


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Sat Apr 11 13:59:05 EDT 2009
Article: 2007369 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazi guard a free man in Austria
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Fri, 10 Apr 2009 14:03:14 -0400, Gord McFee 
wrote:

>On 4/7/2009 9:54 AM, Johannes von Ebersdorf wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 22:38:29 -0400, Gord McFee
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>> On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 07:30:02 -0400, in 
>>> , Johannes von
>>> Ebersdorf  wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On Sun, 05 Apr 2009 17:37:22 -0400, Gord McFee
>>>>  wrote:
>>> [...]
>>> 
>>>>>> It is pretty much common knowledge that the dying in Germany
>>>>>> basically started on May 8, 1945 putting all the war deaths
>>>>>> into shadow.
>>>>> Really?  What is your support for that silly statement?
>>>> The German government archives and the writings of several dozen 
>>>> authors, plus the experiences of people I know personally attest 
>>>> rather clearly that the bulk of German population losses occurred
>>>>  after May 8, 1945. The war losses were trivial by comparison.
>>>> 
>>>> The allied terror bombing killed about a million civilians,
>>>> including almost half a million children under 14, but the
>>>> immediate postwar artificial allied starvation program killed
>>>> almost 3 million people, and the postwar allied ethnic cleansing
>>>> killed another several millions in the eastern provinces. Of the
>>>> original population of 14 million in the eastern provinces, only
>>>> 10 million survived. Dr. Konrad Adenauer, the first postwar
>>>> chancellor, estimated the losses in the east as high as six
>>>> million. The allies arranged for a reign of terror against ethnic
>>>> Germans who were not official German citizens, and the death toll
>>>> among them went into the millions also.
>>> I have never heard any of this.  Do you have references?
>> 
>> I have a library of several dozen books on the topic. Perhaps you 
>> should try doing a bit of reading so you actually know something
>> about the topic before attempting to engage people in discussions
>> where, by your own admission, you know and understand very little.
>> What you haven't heard of is not my problem.
>
>It's pretty hard for me to be aware of something you made up.
>
>Perhaps you should try to understand that your unsubstantiated
>allegations are not worth jackshit and are hereby dismissed.

You're a silly turd, McFee. It matters not what you dismiss or reject
since the truth will stand and your lies will vanish. It isn't up to
me. I'm just trying to have a civilized discussion with people on an
historical topic and your uninvited meddling is starting to annoy.

You clearly know nothing about Germany or its people. You are just a
narrow-minded hater and bigot that is spreading his poison on this
newsgroup.

Please do me the favour of never again responding to one of my posts.
They are not intended for you and I do not seek your opinion on this
or any other topic. In plain language, fuck off.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Sat Apr 11 13:59:05 EDT 2009
Article: 2007371 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Eat your heart out McVay
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Fri, 10 Apr 2009 16:38:51 GMT, "Truthseeker" 
wrote:

>Why not leave the part I postet in your reply you are nothing but  a con 
>artist for us.

It is always funny to see McVay spinning his wheels with endless
numbers of distorted and falsified "quotations" by his current victim.
If you are being targetted by McVay, he must fear your posts as being
too effective and hence you must be intimidated into leaving the
discussion.

>kk
>
>"Kenneth McVay OBC"  wrote in message 
>news:5LmdnXFlK8ZU7kLUnZ2dnUVZ_vadnZ2d@vex.net...
>> In article ,
>> Truthseeker  wrote:
>>>
>>>"Truthseeker"  wrote in message
>>>news:RxIDl.22345$PH1.6816@edtnps82...
>>>>      Franciszek Piper
>>
>> Your point was that more than a million died at Auschwitz, Frau
>> Pikelhaube? We already knew that.
>>
>> YOU have yet to prove that there are Holocaust victims' shoes
>> with soles made of plastic, as you claimed on April 3, 2009. You
>> were lying.
>>
>> YOU have yet to prove that the Yale University Law "Avalon Project"
>> is "Jewish," as you claimed in August, 2008.
>>
>> YOU have yet to prove that "Gussen was a regional crematorium
>> and therefore also included civilian death from this area," as you
>> claimed on July 3, 2008.
>>
>> YOU have yet to prove that "the Germans killed more Jews
>> that were ever alive" as you claimed on June 28, 2008
>>
>> YOU have yet to prove that reporters or photographers carried
>> "5 or 6" striped inmate uniforms from concentration camp to
>> concentration camp just to photograph people wearing them,
>> as you have claimed.
>>
>> YOU have yet to prove that (1) human fat will not combust, and
>> (2) contribute to the heat of the cremation process, as you
>> have claimed.
>>
>> YOU have failed to prove the existence of a single "Eisenhower
>> death camp," as you have claimed, and you have ignored the fact
>> that the German Government itself has said that Bacque's
>> assertions about hundreds of thousands of German soldiers being
>> deliberately starved to death is absolute rubbish.
>>
>> YOU have failed to document that concentration camp guards -
>> ANY concentration camp guards - were ever placed under any
>> sort of "gag order" by anyone, as you have claimed, nor have you
>> been able to produce this alleged "gag order," or point to any
>> archive, anywhere in the world, where it might be found.
>>
>> YOU have failed to prove your incredibly stupid assertion that
>> 45,000 people died during the bombing of Nurnberg as you have claimed.
>>
>> YOU have failed to prove your bizarre assertion that someone,
>> somewhere, said that the Germans killed prisoners at Mauthausen
>> as soon as they arrived by train, as you have claimed.
>>
>> YOU have yet to show which clause of the Versailles Treaty, exactly,
>> prohibits the construction of Polish military installations along
>> the Polish Corridor, even though you claim such a prohibition exists
>> within the treaty.
>>
>> YOU have failed to produce any "agreement" between the Allies and the
>> post-war German government that banned "butting" the Allies in "a bad
>> light" as you have claimed.
>>
>> YOU have not contacted European universities to determine whether or not
>> materials you claim are "banned," as you have claimed, are available.
>>
>> YOU have not documented a single law that banned publication of newspapers
>> printed between 1918 and 1939, as you have claimed.
>>
>> YOU have not contacted the IFZ to ask them to document their claim about
>> gassings at Dachau.
>>
>> YOU cannot produce a shred of documentation proving that a plaque exists
>> outside the Dachau camp which states that no one was ever gassed there,
>> as you have claimed.
>>
>> YOU have not documented a single law which bans "discussion of the
>> Holocaust," or "asking questions about the Holocaust," as you have
>> claimed.
>>
>> THAT is why your claim that you are here to "find out the truth" is so
>> easily revealed as a blatant lie.
>>
>> YOU have not documented or identified a single law which forbids
>> "dissection" of Holocaust historiography, as you have claimed.
>>
>> -- 
>> "Rumours also has it the letter was written on an unknown typewriter
>> in about 1950 but the letter was send to the state department about in 
>> 1940."
>> (Message-ID: m7_Ah.1010750$R63.692769@pd7urf1no, by Kurt Knoll, Kitimat,
>> B.C.'s Leading Revisionist Scholar) 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Sat Apr 11 13:59:06 EDT 2009
Article: 2007374 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Leading Revisionist Scholar Kurt Knoll to account for his lies?
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Fri, 10 Apr 2009 21:23:17 GMT, "Truthseeker" 
wrote:

>The synagoe is still there were it has always been it did survive the war 
>and only the roof was damaged. Why don't you go and look for it.
>Kurt Knoll
>
>"I'll Always Be 10/04/09"  wrote in message 
>news:aussies_suck-6E8896.12403010042009@aries.weretis.net...
>> In article
>> <1WKDl.21093$Db2.18962@edtnps83>,
>> "Truthseeker" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Never created lies just repeat what I read. Honesty you have never known.
>>> Kurt Knoll.
>>
>> YOu said there was a synagogue in
>> Nuremberg while you were there. You lied.

There was and there is. YOU lied.

>>
>> You say there is a gag order on germans.
>> You lied.

Kurt told the truth. And it is Germans, Mr. Insanity, not germans. You
clearly have no respect for others, so it is no my intention to follow
suit and any reference to Jews will be rendered jews.

>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> "Kenneth McVay OBC"  wrote in message
>>> news:5LmdnW9lK8a95ULUnZ2dnUVZ_vadnZ2d@vex.net...
>>> > In article ,
>>> > Truthseeker  wrote:
>>> >>Cheating lining and distorting facts are Jewish domains no one else can
>>> >>ever
>>> >>come close to it.
>>> >
>>> > So, Leading Revisionist Scholar Kurt Knoll, does that mean you will now
>>> > account for your lies?
>>> >
>>> > YOU have yet to prove that there are Holocaust victims' shoes
>>> > with soles made of plastic, as you claimed on April 3, 2009. You
>>> > were lying.
>>> >
>>> > YOU have yet to prove that the Yale University Law "Avalon Project"
>>> > is "Jewish," as you claimed in August, 2008.
>>> >
>>> > YOU have yet to prove that "Gussen was a regional crematorium
>>> > and therefore also included civilian death from this area," as you
>>> > claimed on July 3, 2008.
>>> >
>>> > YOU have yet to prove that "the Germans killed more Jews
>>> > that were ever alive" as you claimed on June 28, 2008
>>> >
>>> > YOU have yet to prove that reporters or photographers carried
>>> > "5 or 6" striped inmate uniforms from concentration camp to
>>> > concentration camp just to photograph people wearing them,
>>> > as you have claimed.
>>> >
>>> > YOU have yet to prove that (1) human fat will not combust, and
>>> > (2) contribute to the heat of the cremation process, as you
>>> > have claimed.
>>> >
>>> > YOU have failed to prove the existence of a single "Eisenhower
>>> > death camp," as you have claimed, and you have ignored the fact
>>> > that the German Government itself has said that Bacque's
>>> > assertions about hundreds of thousands of German soldiers being
>>> > deliberately starved to death is absolute rubbish.
>>> >
>>> > YOU have failed to document that concentration camp guards -
>>> > ANY concentration camp guards - were ever placed under any
>>> > sort of "gag order" by anyone, as you have claimed, nor have you
>>> > been able to produce this alleged "gag order," or point to any
>>> > archive, anywhere in the world, where it might be found.
>>> >
>>> > YOU have failed to prove your incredibly stupid assertion that
>>> > 45,000 people died during the bombing of Nurnberg as you have claimed.
>>> >
>>> > YOU have failed to prove your bizarre assertion that someone,
>>> > somewhere, said that the Germans killed prisoners at Mauthausen
>>> > as soon as they arrived by train, as you have claimed.
>>> >
>>> > YOU have yet to show which clause of the Versailles Treaty, exactly,
>>> > prohibits the construction of Polish military installations along
>>> > the Polish Corridor, even though you claim such a prohibition exists
>>> > within the treaty.
>>> >
>>> > YOU have failed to produce any "agreement" between the Allies and the
>>> > post-war German government that banned "butting" the Allies in "a bad
>>> > light" as you have claimed.
>>> >
>>> > YOU have not contacted European universities to determine whether or 
>>> > not
>>> > materials you claim are "banned," as you have claimed, are available.
>>> >
>>> > YOU have not documented a single law that banned publication of 
>>> > newspapers
>>> > printed between 1918 and 1939, as you have claimed.
>>> >
>>> > YOU have not contacted the IFZ to ask them to document their claim 
>>> > about
>>> > gassings at Dachau.
>>> >
>>> > YOU cannot produce a shred of documentation proving that a plaque 
>>> > exists
>>> > outside the Dachau camp which states that no one was ever gassed there,
>>> > as you have claimed.
>>> >
>>> > YOU have not documented a single law which bans "discussion of the
>>> > Holocaust," or "asking questions about the Holocaust," as you have
>>> > claimed.
>>> >
>>> > THAT is why your claim that you are here to "find out the truth" is so
>>> > easily revealed as a blatant lie.
>>> >
>>> > YOU have not documented or identified a single law which forbids
>>> > "dissection" of Holocaust historiography, as you have claimed.
>>> >
>>> > -- 
>>> > "Don't you know the Jews are the only once who can tell the
>>> > truce all other people like us just to stupid to understand
>>> > they have us believe." (Kurt Knoll, the Village Idiot of
>>> > Kitimat & Leading Example of  "Revisionist Scholarship") 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Sat Apr 11 13:59:06 EDT 2009
Article: 2007376 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Israeli Talibans use Photoshop to borrow women of govt
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Fri, 10 Apr 2009 14:16:53 -0700 (PDT), Zulu 
wrote:

>Women in Israeli govt? Not if Photoshop can help

Seeing how easy it was to falsify that portrait, it makes one wonder
what value the allied photographs of alleged German atrocities
actually have. In many cases, real photographs are simply set up under
false captions. It still ends up being a lie.

>
>The Associated Press
>
>JERUSALEM -- Two women serve in Israel's new Cabinet, but some
>Israelis would rather not see them.
>
>Newspapers aimed at ultra-Orthodox Jewish readers tampered with the
>inaugural photograph of the Cabinet, erasing ministers Limor Livnat
>and Sofa Landver.
>
>Ultra-Orthodox newspapers consider it immodest to print images of
>women.
>
>The daily Yated Neeman digitally changed the photo, moving two male
>ministers into the places formerly occupied by the women.
>
>The weekly Shaa Tova simply blacked the women out, in a photo
>reprinted Friday by the mainstream daily Maariv.
>
>No response was available from the two papers.
>
>During the election, campaign posters featuring female candidate Tzipi
>Livni were defaced near ultra-Orthodox neighborhoods.
>
>
>http://www.miamiherald.com/news/world/AP/story/982229.html


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Sat Apr 11 13:59:07 EDT 2009
Article: 2007378 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Denouncing revisionism
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Fri, 10 Apr 2009 18:08:56 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
wrote:

>"Truthseeker"  wrote in message 
>news:KkrDl.22237$PH1.7753@edtnps82...
>> Patrick I think your are screwed up here. The bad news act
>
>It was "False news", not "bad news".
>
>> is about talking over someone that could be harmful.
>
>No.   You are wrong, and there is no need for you to be wrong, since the 
>facts are available.   Look them up.
>
>The False News law addressed the dissemination of falsehoods

It is an old piece of archaic legislation from another age. It should
have been cleaned out of the statute books years ago, but it is still
there along with the regulation that a horseless carriage has to have
a person with a red flag walking in front of it.

> - these are 
>colloquially also know as lies -  as truth, by people who *know* that the 
>material is false.   As such, it allowed a defence of honest belief - if the 
>defendant honestly believed the material was true, they could not be 
>convicted.
>
>Zundel could not convince either of two juries that he believed that what he 
>was publishing as true was true.    Both juries found that he did not 
>believe what he was publishing was true; meaning that they found that Zundel 
>actually believed that the Holocaust did occur, and more or less as 
>generally understood.
>
>The law was overturned because Zundel established that the Constitution 
>permits a right to lie.
>
>A person who honestly believes that their statements or publications were 
>true not only has no need of such a defence, but would be offfended by it.
>
>
>> There is no law in Canada that prohibits criticising the holocaust.
>
>That's right, though you are again straying close to incoherence.
>
>> ask Kegstra ? how he did get victimized for having an opinion about the 
>> holocaust.
>
>Easy.   Because Keegstra was not "victimized for having an opinion about the 
>Holocaust".
>
>This is not in any way secret information.   The relevant decisions are 
>freely available online, and you can read them yourself.
>
>Keegstra was charged and convicted of wilfully promoting hatred against an 
>identifiabe group, under section 319 of the Criminal Code of Canada. 
>Specifically, Keegstra not only taught his students that Jews are as a group 
>evil, but he required them to accept and adopt his views in order to gain 
>passing grades.
>
>That isn't a description of Holocaust denial, "revisionism", "having an 
>opinion about the holocaust", or "criticising the holocaust".
>
>Canada has no law against Holocaust denial.   Keegstra was not charged with, 
>prosecuted for, or convicted of, Holocaust denial.
>
>I will suggest that part of what confuses you is that Holocaust deniers and 
>"revisionists" are fundamentally motivated not by any search for historical 
>truth, but by simple hatred of Jews and other identifiable groups.
>
>Once frustrated, these people cannot keep their hatred in check in public, 
>and this is where they get into trouble.   They attempt to use Holocaust 
>denial and "revisionism" as a cover, but once the glaring flaws in their 
>historical "arguments" and "analyses" produce inevitable rejection by 
>rational people, their real nature emerges, and they make statements that 
>are illegal under Canadian law.
>
>> For you the holocaust is like a religion and everybody else has to believe 
>> it.
>
>Once again, Kurt, you are just making things up.
>
>Your own experience shows us that your claims about the legality of 
>Holocaust denial or "revisionism" don't hold water.   There are no charges 
>against you for it, for the simple reason that what *you* do isn't illegal - 
>you don't appear to be actively promoting hatred of an identifiable group.
>
>-pk
>
>> Kurt Knoll.
>>
>> "Patrick Keenan"  wrote in message 
>> news:3didnXfqFLjUo0PUnZ2dnUVZ_qGdnZ2d@supernews.com...
>>> "Truthseeker"  wrote in message 
>>> news:x8nDl.22180$PH1.9409@edtnps82...
>>>> Did he really where did he say this.
>>>
>>> In his successful appeal of the False News conviction.   His defence was 
>>> that he had a constitutional right to lie.
>>>
>>> You could actually try paying attention.
>>>
>>> -pk
>>>
>>>
>>>> kk
>>>>
>>>> "Patrick Keenan"  wrote in message 
>>>> news:0oydndutkvtC7EDUnZ2dnUVZ_oKdnZ2d@supernews.com...
>>>>> "Truthseeker"  wrote in message 
>>>>> news:5AdDl.20858$Db2.15695@edtnps83...
>>>>>> Knock it of Patrick anyone you does not agree with your version is a 
>>>>>> holocaust denier. But there is no one who is more dishonest and 
>>>>>> corrupt that your clan is.
>>>>>
>>>>> Excuse me, but Zundel is the one who made a fortune from promotiong 
>>>>> material he admitted was false.
>>>>>
>>>>> You were saying something about dishonest and corrupt?
>>>>>
>>>>> -pk
>>>>>
>>>>>> Kurt Knoll.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Patrick Keenan"  wrote in message 
>>>>>> news:LsCdnVbLBITfzkDUnZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@supernews.com...
>>>>>>> "Topaz"  wrote in message 
>>>>>>> news:ggjqt49esevr49umlnbjqerm3cvs72fcgp@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> There are men who can prove the 'Holocaust' is a Big Lie.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Actually, there aren't.   There are people who lie about it, for 
>>>>>>> their own reasons.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You can find them in jail.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Let's look at Zundel, since that's who you are referring to.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Zundel admitted that he believes that the Holocaust actually 
>>>>>>> occurred.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> He admitted this when he failed, twice, in convincing juries that he 
>>>>>>> actually believed that the Holocaust denial material he published was 
>>>>>>> materially true, and a appealed using a defence that he had a 
>>>>>>> constitutional right to lie.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A person telling the truth has no need for such a defence.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Their imprisonment is scarcely mentioned in the mass
>>>>>>>> media. Their imprisonment goes unlamented by the mass columnists. 
>>>>>>>> To
>>>>>>>> discuss these men and their work would endanger the Propa-sphere the
>>>>>>>> media construct.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, they are just not as important as they think.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They must disappear. But we know, mass media. And
>>>>>>>> we're not going away. We're getting louder and stronger.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You mean, you're getting better internet connections.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And there's
>>>>>>>> nothing you can do to stop us.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I keep reading Holocaust deniers say that, and it keeps not 
>>>>>>> happening.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -pk
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Sat Apr 11 13:59:07 EDT 2009
Article: 2007428 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazi guard a free man in Austria
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sat, 11 Apr 2009 02:13:42 GMT, "Truthseeker" 
wrote:

>Gord you are in the extortion business Ebersdorf is not.

Gourd is a moron. I've become rather tired of his name-calling and
constant stupid barrage of "liar" regarding things that have been
shown to be true more than half a century ago. He is just a cheap-shot
propagandist who would give you an argument should you say that the
sun tends to rise in the east, and the fact that it has done so every
day for the last four and a half billion years would not constitute
evidence for him.

He is just a jackass out to disrupt the newsgroup. This topic really
needs a moderated newsgroup where posts like those of McFee and McVay
are reviewed in advance by a team of moderators and not posted if they
are rude or disruptive. McVay & McFee have made it their project to
see that alt.revisionism cannot function.

I have yet to see either McVay or McFee make any sort of contribution
to this newsgroup. The two of them, and their host of fictitious
friends, have made this newsgroup into a zoo with their hysterical
shrieking and aggressive rudeness.


>Kurt Knoll.
>
>"Gord McFee"  wrote in message 
>news:0utvt4d200ccg27tujtj918s0nsieq6kdq@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 10 Apr 2009 22:23:04 +0000 (UTC), in
>> , a little sanity,  please
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> In article ,
>>> Johannes von Ebersdorf   wrote:
>>>
>>> > You're a silly turd, McFee. It matters not what you dismiss or reject
>>>            ^^^^^^^^^^
>>> > since the truth will stand and your lies will vanish. It isn't up to
>>> > me. I'm just trying to have a civilized discussion with people on an
>>>                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>> > historical topic and your uninvited meddling is starting to annoy.
>>
>> Not too bright, is he?
>>
>> -- 
>> Gord McFee
>> I'll write no line before its time
>>
>> Visit the Holocaust History Project
>> http://www.holocaust-history.org 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Sat Apr 11 13:59:07 EDT 2009
Article: 2007429 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazi guard a free man in Austria
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sat, 11 Apr 2009 01:56:04 GMT, "Truthseeker" 
wrote:

>Now this is something what confuses me. Looks like you do not even know how 
>your system works. What we are looking at are always one sided version of 
>histories. Certainly every effort is made made make sure no one gets to hear 
>the German version of world war II. Look at as example how the American 
>system work. Every they start, instigate, manipulate a war they are many 
>headlines of rhetoric taken place. World War 2 and why the germans startet 
>were all openly printed in the British and German news papers. To ovoid any 
>questioning or controversy the Germans today are not allowed to reprint what 
>was printed in the news papers from 1918 till 1945. it is the purpose of 
>this to keep in the dark and intentionally to prevent any controversies. 
>This is what I call manipulating histories and I consider this has been done 
>intentionally.

There isn't much point to trying to converse with McFee. The man is a
moron. Use your newsreader's filter to put McFee in the garbage bin
where he belongs. I should have done that months ago, but kept hoping
that the man actually had a brain. He has shown clearly that he
doesn't and that his non-contributions to this newsgroup will
continue. My time is too valuable to waste on his garbage posts, so I
will no longer see them unless somebody else replies to him.

I see that he is already babbling about people running away. I haven't
run away, I have just put him and his trash in the garbage bin where
it actually belongs.

>Kurt Knoll.
>
>"Gord McFee"  wrote in message 
>news:5hSDl.119494$Yx2.117706@en-nntp-06.dc1.easynews.com...
>> On 4/10/2009 6:15 PM, Johannes von Ebersdorf wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 10 Apr 2009 14:03:14 -0400, Gord McFee  
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 4/7/2009 9:54 AM, Johannes von Ebersdorf wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 22:38:29 -0400, Gord McFee  
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 07:30:02 -0400, in 
>>>>>> , Johannes von Ebersdorf 
>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, 05 Apr 2009 17:37:22 -0400, Gord McFee 
>>>>>>>  wrote:
>>>>>> [...]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It is pretty much common knowledge that the dying in Germany 
>>>>>>>>> basically started on May 8, 1945 putting all the war deaths into 
>>>>>>>>> shadow.
>>>>>>>> Really?  What is your support for that silly statement?
>>>>>>> The German government archives and the writings of several dozen 
>>>>>>> authors, plus the experiences of people I know personally attest 
>>>>>>> rather clearly that the bulk of German population losses occurred 
>>>>>>> after May 8, 1945. The war losses were trivial by comparison.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The allied terror bombing killed about a million civilians, including 
>>>>>>> almost half a million children under 14, but the immediate postwar 
>>>>>>> artificial allied starvation program killed
>>>>>>>  almost 3 million people, and the postwar allied ethnic cleansing 
>>>>>>> killed another several millions in the eastern provinces. Of the 
>>>>>>> original population of 14 million in the eastern provinces, only 10 
>>>>>>> million survived. Dr. Konrad Adenauer, the first postwar chancellor, 
>>>>>>> estimated the losses in the east as high as six million. The allies 
>>>>>>> arranged for a
>>>>>>>  reign of terror against ethnic Germans who were not official
>>>>>>>  German citizens, and the death toll among them went into the
>>>>>>>  millions also.
>>>>>> I have never heard any of this.  Do you have references?
>>>>> I have a library of several dozen books on the topic. Perhaps you
>>>>>  should try doing a bit of reading so you actually know something
>>>>>  about the topic before attempting to engage people in discussions 
>>>>> where, by your own admission, you know and understand
>>>>>  very little. What you haven't heard of is not my problem.
>>>>>
>>>> It's pretty hard for me to be aware of something you made up.
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps you should try to understand that your unsubstantiated 
>>>> allegations are not worth jackshit and are hereby dismissed.
>>>
>>> You're a silly turd, McFee. It matters not what you dismiss or reject
>>>  since the truth will stand and your lies will vanish. It isn't up to
>>>  me. I'm just trying to have a civilized discussion with people on an
>>>  historical topic and your uninvited meddling is starting to annoy.
>>
>> Tough.
>>
>>> You clearly know nothing about Germany or its people. You are just a
>>>  narrow-minded hater and bigot that is spreading his poison on this 
>>> newsgroup.
>>
>> I have forgotten more about Germany than you know.  I also happen to
>> deal in the truth, something of which you are ignorant.
>
>
>>
>>> Please do me the favour of never again responding to one of my posts.
>>
>> Please go fuck yourself.
>>
>>> They are not intended for you and I do not seek your opinion on this or 
>>> any other topic. In plain language, fuck off.
>>
>> I will respond to whatever I wish.  If you choose to run away, like you
>> gutless swine are inclined to so, be my guest.
>>
>> -- 
>> Gord McFee
>> I'll write no line before its time
>>
>> Visit the Holocaust History Project
>> http://www.holocaust-history.org 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Sat Apr 11 13:59:08 EDT 2009
Article: 2007430 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hitler Had His Support Base Firmly From Republicans -  Conservative Historian Jonah Goldberg
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Fri, 10 Apr 2009 20:59:57 -0700 (PDT), Hiroshima Facts
 wrote:

>On Apr 7, 8:53 am, "Bent Attorney Esq." 
>wrote:
>> On Apr 6, 8:37 pm, Tim Miller 
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Topaz wrote:
>> > >   German leaders beleived in death before dishonor.
>>
>> > No, they didn't. Like you, they didn't even understand
>> > the DEFINITION of honor.
>>
>> That's a blatant lie.  If you want to see who is dishonorable take a
>> look at what the Americans did to the DEF's.  Hiroshima, Nagasaki,
>> Dresden.  But you know the score.
>
>Hard to see what was dishonorable about them.  Hiroshima was a major
>military center and Nagasaki was an industrial center devoted to
>manufacturing weapons.

Even if your claims about the two cities were true, and there is
little evidence that they are, it wouldn't justify the civilian
atrocity that the Americans put together.

> And we were at war with Japan.

So? That justifies civilian atrocities, does it? What is your whine
about the Nazis then, if civilian atrocities are acceptable?

>
>Dresden was burned by the UK. 

Actually it was an Anglo-American joint effort of senseless
destruction.


>I am not as familiar with it as I am
>the bombing of Japan, but it happened during the war, and I'm sure the
>UK was aiming for legitimate targets.

That is pretty naive of you. But for Americans, ignorance does indeed
seem to be bliss.



From ebersdorf@gmail.com Sat Apr 11 13:59:08 EDT 2009
Article: 2007431 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Denouncing revisionism
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
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On Sat, 11 Apr 2009 03:21:47 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
wrote:

>"Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>news:taivt4llnnq4m07ckjt2o9kgr0fgch8ng2@4ax.com...
>> On Fri, 10 Apr 2009 18:08:56 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>"Truthseeker"  wrote in message
>>>news:KkrDl.22237$PH1.7753@edtnps82...
>>>> Patrick I think your are screwed up here. The bad news act
>>>
>>>It was "False news", not "bad news".
>>>
>>>> is about talking over someone that could be harmful.
>>>
>>>No.   You are wrong, and there is no need for you to be wrong, since the
>>>facts are available.   Look them up.
>>>
>>>The False News law addressed the dissemination of falsehoods
>>
>> It is an old piece of archaic legislation from another age. It should
>> have been cleaned out of the statute books years ago, but it is still
>> there along with the regulation that a horseless carriage has to have
>> a person with a red flag walking in front of it.
>
>Once again, you make statements that are not connected to reality.
>
>The Canadian False News law was struck down in 1992, that's seventeen years 
>ago now, when the Supreme Court of Canada agreed with Zundel that he had a 
>constitutional right to lie.

Why do you suppose that this archaic piece of legislation was struck
down in 1992? Could it be because of its fraudulent use as a
harassment tool by Sabina and her remembrance committee?

>
>So it isn't on the books, and no-one can be prosecuted for it in Canada.

The Zundel fiasco brought about its demise. This archaic legislation
can no longer be used as a harassment tool to intimidate people into
paying lip service to holocaust™ orthodoxy.


>
>Do try to keep up with the news.
>
>-pk
>
>
>>
>>> - these are
>>>colloquially also know as lies -  as truth, by people who *know* that the
>>>material is false.   As such, it allowed a defence of honest belief - if 
>>>the
>>>defendant honestly believed the material was true, they could not be
>>>convicted.
>>>
>>>Zundel could not convince either of two juries that he believed that what 
>>>he
>>>was publishing as true was true.    Both juries found that he did not
>>>believe what he was publishing was true; meaning that they found that 
>>>Zundel
>>>actually believed that the Holocaust did occur, and more or less as
>>>generally understood.
>>>
>>>The law was overturned because Zundel established that the Constitution
>>>permits a right to lie.
>>>
>>>A person who honestly believes that their statements or publications were
>>>true not only has no need of such a defence, but would be offfended by it.
>>>
>>>
>>>> There is no law in Canada that prohibits criticising the holocaust.
>>>
>>>That's right, though you are again straying close to incoherence.
>>>
>>>> ask Kegstra ? how he did get victimized for having an opinion about the
>>>> holocaust.
>>>
>>>Easy.   Because Keegstra was not "victimized for having an opinion about 
>>>the
>>>Holocaust".
>>>
>>>This is not in any way secret information.   The relevant decisions are
>>>freely available online, and you can read them yourself.
>>>
>>>Keegstra was charged and convicted of wilfully promoting hatred against an
>>>identifiabe group, under section 319 of the Criminal Code of Canada.
>>>Specifically, Keegstra not only taught his students that Jews are as a 
>>>group
>>>evil, but he required them to accept and adopt his views in order to gain
>>>passing grades.
>>>
>>>That isn't a description of Holocaust denial, "revisionism", "having an
>>>opinion about the holocaust", or "criticising the holocaust".
>>>
>>>Canada has no law against Holocaust denial.   Keegstra was not charged 
>>>with,
>>>prosecuted for, or convicted of, Holocaust denial.
>>>
>>>I will suggest that part of what confuses you is that Holocaust deniers 
>>>and
>>>"revisionists" are fundamentally motivated not by any search for 
>>>historical
>>>truth, but by simple hatred of Jews and other identifiable groups.
>>>
>>>Once frustrated, these people cannot keep their hatred in check in public,
>>>and this is where they get into trouble.   They attempt to use Holocaust
>>>denial and "revisionism" as a cover, but once the glaring flaws in their
>>>historical "arguments" and "analyses" produce inevitable rejection by
>>>rational people, their real nature emerges, and they make statements that
>>>are illegal under Canadian law.
>>>
>>>> For you the holocaust is like a religion and everybody else has to 
>>>> believe
>>>> it.
>>>
>>>Once again, Kurt, you are just making things up.
>>>
>>>Your own experience shows us that your claims about the legality of
>>>Holocaust denial or "revisionism" don't hold water.   There are no charges
>>>against you for it, for the simple reason that what *you* do isn't 
>>>illegal -
>>>you don't appear to be actively promoting hatred of an identifiable group.
>>>
>>>-pk
>>>
>>>> Kurt Knoll.
>>>>
>>>> "Patrick Keenan"  wrote in message
>>>> news:3didnXfqFLjUo0PUnZ2dnUVZ_qGdnZ2d@supernews.com...
>>>>> "Truthseeker"  wrote in message
>>>>> news:x8nDl.22180$PH1.9409@edtnps82...
>>>>>> Did he really where did he say this.
>>>>>
>>>>> In his successful appeal of the False News conviction.   His defence 
>>>>> was
>>>>> that he had a constitutional right to lie.
>>>>>
>>>>> You could actually try paying attention.
>>>>>
>>>>> -pk
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> kk
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Patrick Keenan"  wrote in message
>>>>>> news:0oydndutkvtC7EDUnZ2dnUVZ_oKdnZ2d@supernews.com...
>>>>>>> "Truthseeker"  wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:5AdDl.20858$Db2.15695@edtnps83...
>>>>>>>> Knock it of Patrick anyone you does not agree with your version is a
>>>>>>>> holocaust denier. But there is no one who is more dishonest and
>>>>>>>> corrupt that your clan is.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Excuse me, but Zundel is the one who made a fortune from promotiong
>>>>>>> material he admitted was false.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You were saying something about dishonest and corrupt?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -pk
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Kurt Knoll.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Patrick Keenan"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:LsCdnVbLBITfzkDUnZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@supernews.com...
>>>>>>>>> "Topaz"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:ggjqt49esevr49umlnbjqerm3cvs72fcgp@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> There are men who can prove the 'Holocaust' is a Big Lie.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Actually, there aren't.   There are people who lie about it, for
>>>>>>>>> their own reasons.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You can find them in jail.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Let's look at Zundel, since that's who you are referring to.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Zundel admitted that he believes that the Holocaust actually
>>>>>>>>> occurred.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> He admitted this when he failed, twice, in convincing juries that 
>>>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>>>> actually believed that the Holocaust denial material he published 
>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>> materially true, and a appealed using a defence that he had a
>>>>>>>>> constitutional right to lie.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A person telling the truth has no need for such a defence.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Their imprisonment is scarcely mentioned in the mass
>>>>>>>>>> media. Their imprisonment goes unlamented by the mass columnists.
>>>>>>>>>> To
>>>>>>>>>> discuss these men and their work would endanger the Propa-sphere 
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> media construct.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No, they are just not as important as they think.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> They must disappear. But we know, mass media. And
>>>>>>>>>> we're not going away. We're getting louder and stronger.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You mean, you're getting better internet connections.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And there's
>>>>>>>>>> nothing you can do to stop us.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I keep reading Holocaust deniers say that, and it keeps not
>>>>>>>>> happening.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -pk
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Sat Apr 11 13:59:09 EDT 2009
Article: 2007432 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Denouncing revisionism
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
Message-ID: 
References:   <5AdDl.20858$Db2.15695@edtnps83> <0oydndutkvtC7EDUnZ2dnUVZ_oKdnZ2d@supernews.com>  <3didnXfqFLjUo0PUnZ2dnUVZ_qGdnZ2d@supernews.com>     
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On Sat, 11 Apr 2009 11:26:24 GMT, "Truthseeker" 
wrote:

>There is no such a thing as a right to lie but it is everybody's right to 
>raise questions. Honesty you have never known.

Mr. Keenan is another one of the mindless lackeys of McFee and McVay.
His stuff is really quite predictable.

>Kurt Knoll.
>
>"Patrick Keenan"  wrote in message 
>news:v7idnTozI_Oc233UnZ2dnUVZ_hWdnZ2d@supernews.com...
>> "Johannes von Ebersdorf"  wrote in message 
>> news:taivt4llnnq4m07ckjt2o9kgr0fgch8ng2@4ax.com...
>>> On Fri, 10 Apr 2009 18:08:56 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Truthseeker"  wrote in message
>>>>news:KkrDl.22237$PH1.7753@edtnps82...
>>>>> Patrick I think your are screwed up here. The bad news act
>>>>
>>>>It was "False news", not "bad news".
>>>>
>>>>> is about talking over someone that could be harmful.
>>>>
>>>>No.   You are wrong, and there is no need for you to be wrong, since the
>>>>facts are available.   Look them up.
>>>>
>>>>The False News law addressed the dissemination of falsehoods
>>>
>>> It is an old piece of archaic legislation from another age. It should
>>> have been cleaned out of the statute books years ago, but it is still
>>> there along with the regulation that a horseless carriage has to have
>>> a person with a red flag walking in front of it.
>>
>> Once again, you make statements that are not connected to reality.
>>
>> The Canadian False News law was struck down in 1992, that's seventeen 
>> years ago now, when the Supreme Court of Canada agreed with Zundel that he 
>> had a constitutional right to lie.
>>
>> So it isn't on the books, and no-one can be prosecuted for it in Canada.
>>
>> Do try to keep up with the news.
>>
>> -pk
>>
>>
>>>
>>>> - these are
>>>>colloquially also know as lies -  as truth, by people who *know* that the
>>>>material is false.   As such, it allowed a defence of honest belief - if 
>>>>the
>>>>defendant honestly believed the material was true, they could not be
>>>>convicted.
>>>>
>>>>Zundel could not convince either of two juries that he believed that what 
>>>>he
>>>>was publishing as true was true.    Both juries found that he did not
>>>>believe what he was publishing was true; meaning that they found that 
>>>>Zundel
>>>>actually believed that the Holocaust did occur, and more or less as
>>>>generally understood.
>>>>
>>>>The law was overturned because Zundel established that the Constitution
>>>>permits a right to lie.
>>>>
>>>>A person who honestly believes that their statements or publications were
>>>>true not only has no need of such a defence, but would be offfended by 
>>>>it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> There is no law in Canada that prohibits criticising the holocaust.
>>>>
>>>>That's right, though you are again straying close to incoherence.
>>>>
>>>>> ask Kegstra ? how he did get victimized for having an opinion about the
>>>>> holocaust.
>>>>
>>>>Easy.   Because Keegstra was not "victimized for having an opinion about 
>>>>the
>>>>Holocaust".
>>>>
>>>>This is not in any way secret information.   The relevant decisions are
>>>>freely available online, and you can read them yourself.
>>>>
>>>>Keegstra was charged and convicted of wilfully promoting hatred against 
>>>>an
>>>>identifiabe group, under section 319 of the Criminal Code of Canada.
>>>>Specifically, Keegstra not only taught his students that Jews are as a 
>>>>group
>>>>evil, but he required them to accept and adopt his views in order to gain
>>>>passing grades.
>>>>
>>>>That isn't a description of Holocaust denial, "revisionism", "having an
>>>>opinion about the holocaust", or "criticising the holocaust".
>>>>
>>>>Canada has no law against Holocaust denial.   Keegstra was not charged 
>>>>with,
>>>>prosecuted for, or convicted of, Holocaust denial.
>>>>
>>>>I will suggest that part of what confuses you is that Holocaust deniers 
>>>>and
>>>>"revisionists" are fundamentally motivated not by any search for 
>>>>historical
>>>>truth, but by simple hatred of Jews and other identifiable groups.
>>>>
>>>>Once frustrated, these people cannot keep their hatred in check in 
>>>>public,
>>>>and this is where they get into trouble.   They attempt to use Holocaust
>>>>denial and "revisionism" as a cover, but once the glaring flaws in their
>>>>historical "arguments" and "analyses" produce inevitable rejection by
>>>>rational people, their real nature emerges, and they make statements that
>>>>are illegal under Canadian law.
>>>>
>>>>> For you the holocaust is like a religion and everybody else has to 
>>>>> believe
>>>>> it.
>>>>
>>>>Once again, Kurt, you are just making things up.
>>>>
>>>>Your own experience shows us that your claims about the legality of
>>>>Holocaust denial or "revisionism" don't hold water.   There are no 
>>>>charges
>>>>against you for it, for the simple reason that what *you* do isn't 
>>>>illegal -
>>>>you don't appear to be actively promoting hatred of an identifiable 
>>>>group.
>>>>
>>>>-pk
>>>>
>>>>> Kurt Knoll.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Patrick Keenan"  wrote in message
>>>>> news:3didnXfqFLjUo0PUnZ2dnUVZ_qGdnZ2d@supernews.com...
>>>>>> "Truthseeker"  wrote in message
>>>>>> news:x8nDl.22180$PH1.9409@edtnps82...
>>>>>>> Did he really where did he say this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In his successful appeal of the False News conviction.   His defence 
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> that he had a constitutional right to lie.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You could actually try paying attention.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -pk
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> kk
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Patrick Keenan"  wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:0oydndutkvtC7EDUnZ2dnUVZ_oKdnZ2d@supernews.com...
>>>>>>>> "Truthseeker"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:5AdDl.20858$Db2.15695@edtnps83...
>>>>>>>>> Knock it of Patrick anyone you does not agree with your version is 
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> holocaust denier. But there is no one who is more dishonest and
>>>>>>>>> corrupt that your clan is.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Excuse me, but Zundel is the one who made a fortune from promotiong
>>>>>>>> material he admitted was false.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You were saying something about dishonest and corrupt?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -pk
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Kurt Knoll.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Patrick Keenan"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:LsCdnVbLBITfzkDUnZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@supernews.com...
>>>>>>>>>> "Topaz"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:ggjqt49esevr49umlnbjqerm3cvs72fcgp@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> There are men who can prove the 'Holocaust' is a Big Lie.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Actually, there aren't.   There are people who lie about it, for
>>>>>>>>>> their own reasons.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You can find them in jail.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Let's look at Zundel, since that's who you are referring to.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Zundel admitted that he believes that the Holocaust actually
>>>>>>>>>> occurred.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> He admitted this when he failed, twice, in convincing juries that 
>>>>>>>>>> he
>>>>>>>>>> actually believed that the Holocaust denial material he published 
>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>> materially true, and a appealed using a defence that he had a
>>>>>>>>>> constitutional right to lie.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A person telling the truth has no need for such a defence.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Their imprisonment is scarcely mentioned in the mass
>>>>>>>>>>> media. Their imprisonment goes unlamented by the mass columnists.
>>>>>>>>>>> To
>>>>>>>>>>> discuss these men and their work would endanger the Propa-sphere 
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> media construct.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No, they are just not as important as they think.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> They must disappear. But we know, mass media. And
>>>>>>>>>>> we're not going away. We're getting louder and stronger.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You mean, you're getting better internet connections.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And there's
>>>>>>>>>>> nothing you can do to stop us.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I keep reading Holocaust deniers say that, and it keeps not
>>>>>>>>>> happening.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -pk
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>
>> 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Sat Apr 11 13:59:10 EDT 2009
Article: 2007434 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Denouncing revisionism
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On Sat, 11 Apr 2009 11:23:15 GMT, "Truthseeker" 
wrote:

>
>Not believing does not mean is a right to lie. Go and get yourself checked 
>out by a shrink you are a nut case. There is a difference not between 
>believing and not trusting you.

You are probably being too subtle for poor Patrick. In a fashion
similar to a door-to-door vacuum cleaner salesman, he only knows to
spew the memorized pitch fed to him by his masters, in this case
McFee/McVay.

>
>Kurt Knoll.
>
>"Patrick Keenan"  wrote in message 
>news:H-ednZh0wOI01H3UnZ2dnUVZ_gCdnZ2d@supernews.com...
>>
>> "Topaz"  wrote in message 
>> news:2rlvt414jojumo3ofg5ldskbia57jc26h2@4ax.com...
>>> On Fri, 10 Apr 2009 18:50:29 -0400, "Patrick Keenan" 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>No, the problem with the Jury is that they were able to think for
>>>>themselves, and were not persuaded by Zundel that *he actually believed 
>>>>that
>>>>what he was publishing as true was true*.
>>>
>>> That is the biggest crock of poop ever to be posted. The Jews control
>>> the media and the minds of the Jury. Even if they did want to go
>>> against what the Jews want, they wouldn't have the balls.  And anyone
>>> reading what Zundel had to say knows that this jury has it's
>>> collective head up a Jews aft end.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Whether the published material turned out to be true or not was not
>>>>particularly relevant to the defence.
>>>>
>>>>What was relevant was establishing that the defendant believed it.
>>>>
>>>>But, in the end, Zundel could not persuade either of two juries (or the
>>>>Supreme Court of Canada) that he believed that what he was publishing as
>>>>true, was true.
>>>
>>> So what!
>>
>> Well, so that means that rational people don't buy that Zundel believes 
>> that the Holocaust did not occur more or less as is generally understood.
>>
>> And their judgement is born out by Zundel's decision to claim a right to 
>> lie as grounds for appeal.
>>
>> Why would he claim a right to lie when an absolute defence was honest 
>> belief?
>>
>>> The Jury obviously had poop for brains
>>
>> By which you mean, you disagree with their judgement.   Everybody's wrong 
>> except for you, eh?
>>
>>> and you are a low
>>> down snake in the grass
>>
>> Touch a nerve, did we?
>>
>>> for pretending this trial proves anything.
>>
>> It certainly proved something for Zundel, since - if you are to be 
>> believed - it caused him to disavow what you say are his beliefs to avoid 
>> a short jail sentence.
>>
>>
>>>>Their judgement was borne out in Zundel's appeal grounds.
>>>
>>> Their  "judgement", what a joke.  They would rather cut their own
>>> throats than upset their masters, the Jews.
>>
>> So, your view of people who do not agree with your views is that they are 
>> just pawns of Jews.
>>
>> It must be hard for you, living in a world where Jews are all-powerful and 
>> people like Zundel are so pathetically afraid of them.
>>
>> You should try moving to a better world, where people have spines and 
>> stand up for their beliefs.
>>
>>
>>>>His appeal grounds were that he had a constitutional right to publish
>>>>material he knew to be false as true - in colloqiual terms, his appeal 
>>>>was
>>>>that he had a constitutional right to lie.
>>>
>>> You never heard of playing devil's advocate?
>>
>> Yes, and it has nothing to do with the False News charges.
>>
>>> So he didn't want to go to jail, who does.
>>
>> Apparently it's a preferred environment for Zundel, since he took every 
>> step he could to get into and stay in a Canadian jail after the US tossed 
>> him for being illegally resident.
>>
>> He didn't have to go to jail at all, he deliberately took actions that 
>> triggered his incarceration, then made sure he stayed there for, what, two 
>> years?
>>
>>> The holo is a hoax,
>>
>> Except that the hoax is the idea, promoted by people who make money off 
>> it, that the Holocaust did not occur.  Zundel made rather a lot of money 
>> promoting this idea, and when faced with a penalty for it, would not 
>> affirm his belief in the idea.
>>
>>> Zundel told the truth,
>>
>> Sorry, but that is something that Zundel couldn't convince people of. 
>> That was his entire problem.
>>
>> And if you believe that Zundel told the truth, then you must be very 
>> disappointed in Zundel's use of a "right to lie" defence, rather than "I 
>> truly believe this".
>>
>> Too bad for you that your hero lacked a spine.
>>
>>> the Jews control the media, and the Jews are an enemy race.
>>
>> And so we see your real motivation:  You just hate Jews.
>>
>>>>No honest person who believed in the truth of their statements would make 
>>>>an
>>>>appeal on such grounds.   They would be *offended* by the suggestion.
>>>
>>>  When are you going to stop your crap.
>>
>> So now, standing up for your beliefs is crap?
>>
>>
>>> You are not the one looking at the jail cell.
>>
>> One might note, again, that Zundel took actions that put him in jail after 
>> being tossed by the US for being an illegal resident, and then took 
>> actions to stay there as long a possible.
>>
>> So I don't think you're in a position to argue anything about jail cells.
>>
>>> If you want to kiss up to Jews don't expect others to
>>> follow.
>>
>> Let me see if I understand your stated position clearly:
>>
>> For you, the fear of a short jail sentence justifies the complete 
>> abandonment of beliefs and principles.
>>
>> For you, if you've been challenged for promoting something that you really 
>> believe is true but will get you in a bit of trouble,  it's perfectly 
>> acceptable to whimper and claim that you didn't really mean it, just to 
>> weasel out of a few months in jail.
>>
>> For you, it's not worth a short jail term to stand on your hind legs and 
>> say "this is what I believe".
>>
>> For you, principles are worthless.
>>
>> Have I got that about right?
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>You may figuratively speak that way, but it doesn't affect the reality 
>>>>that
>>>>Zundel clearly did not believe that what he was publishing as true was 
>>>>true,
>>>>and certainly doesn't change the reality that he couldn't convince no 
>>>>less
>>>>than three courts that he believed it, either.
>>>
>>>  You are so full of poop it's outlandish. Can it be that you really
>>> believe what you are typing?
>>
>> It's the unvarnished truth.
>>
>> Zundel always believed that the Holocaust occurred.   Eventually, he 
>> argued that he had a right to lie about it, rather than arguing that he 
>> believed that it didn't happen.
>>
>> You can read the decisions yourself.
>>
>> And weep.
>>
>>>That can't be, you must have some other
>>> motive for grovelling before Jews.
>>
>> Sorry, but I'm not the one who decided that it was prudent to argue that 
>> there's a constitutional right to lie, rather than stand up and say "This 
>> is true!".
>>
>> That would be Zundel.
>>
>>
>>>>Except of course that it isn't.
>>>>
>>>>Zundel clearly did not believe that what he was publishing as true, was
>>>>true, and was unable to convince anyone in the legal system or on the 
>>>>juries
>>>>that he believed it.
>>>
>>> Repeating it doesn't make it less of a crock.
>>
>> Your rote denial does not refute anything.
>>
>> Two juries, the Ontario Court of Appeal and one Supreme Court were not 
>> convinced that Zundel believed that what he was publishing as truth was 
>> true.
>>
>> Zundel's grounds for appeal were that he had a *right to lie*.
>>
>> No honest person who genuinely believed in the truth of their statements 
>> or publications would ever consider presenting or accepting such an 
>> argument.
>>
>> An honest person who believed in the truth of their statements or 
>> publications would prefer jail.
>>
>>>>Please read the judgements of the Supreme Court of Canada on the matter.
>>>>They are available online.
>>>
>>> So they have the ordinary bootlickers of Jews, and they have the
>>> -Supreme-  bootlickers of Jews.
>>
>> Meanwhile, you have a guy who will not stand up for your beliefs and say 
>> "I believe this is true".
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>And far from exhonerating Zundel, the Supreme Court was also not 
>>>>convinced
>>>>that Zundel believed that what he was presenting as true, was true. 
>>>>They
>>>>recognised that Zundel was lying.
>>>>
>>>>In presenting a defence that knowingly distributing falsehood as fact is 
>>>>a
>>>>permissible form of expression, Zundel admitted that he knew that what he
>>>>was publishing was false, and that the Holocaust did occur more or less 
>>>>as
>>>>is generally understood.
>>>>
>>>>There really isn't any way around this.   If Zundel honestly believed 
>>>>that
>>>>what he was publishing as true was true, he would not have argued that he
>>>>had a right to lie.
>>>
>>>  Except he didn't want get locked up by a group of worthless Jew
>>> bootlickers.
>>
>> And here we are,  at your position that Zundel was much too afraid of a 
>> little jail time to stand up for what you say were his beliefs.
>>
>> Instead of saying "This is truth!",  he argued, "I have a right to tell 
>> lies!".
>>
>> It's no wonder that he couldn't convince his peers that he belived in what 
>> he was selling.
>>
>> And it's no wonder you are so touchy about the subject.
>>
>>>>
>>>>If he believed that what he was publishing as true was true, he would
>>>>instead have argued *that he believed in the truth* of the material.
>>>>
>>>  I don't believe you are stupid enough to be convinced by your own
>>> post. You have some unnamed reason for grovelling before Jews.
>>
>> Perhaps you should try to deal with reality.
>>
>> Face it: your hero lacked the spine to stand up and say "This is true!".
>>
>> And let's be clear: that's all he had to do to defend against the original 
>> charge.   He just had to prove that *he believed*.
>>
>> Instead, he chose to say " I have a right to lie!".   No real believer 
>> would *ever* countenance such a betrayal, so it's clear that he never 
>> believed it.
>>
>> You must be very, very disappointed in him.   It's no wonder you're so 
>> touchy on the subject.
>>
>> -pk
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Sat Apr 11 13:59:10 EDT 2009
Article: 2007435 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Question about David Irving
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sat, 11 Apr 2009 09:14:03 +0300, holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene
Holman) wrote:

>In article <79adnbnLb9u7nH3UnZ2dnUVZ_g2dnZ2d@posted.localnet>, Doc Tony
> wrote:
>
>> Gord McFee wrote:
>> 
>> > On Fri, 10 Apr 2009 19:48:53 +0300, in
>> > ,
>> > holman@mappi.helsinki.fi (Eugene Holman) wrote:
>> > 
>> > 
>> >>In article , Doc Tony
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>>Hat er im Gericht stets gewinnen?
>> >>
>> >>"Gewonnen" heißt es

That is a pretty elementary mistake for somebody who claims to be a
resident of Darmstadt. Perhaps it isn't the Darmstadt located in
Hessen, but some obscure desert location in the Ignorant States of
America?

>> > 
>> > 
>> > Und das hat er niemals getan.
>> > 
>> 
>> Und, ja, der Punkt!
>
>
>Insanity (definition): to continuously repeat the same action hoping for a
>different result.
>
>Regards,
>Eugene Holman
>
>> 
>> Doc Tony
>> ;-)
>> 
>> Watch now ...
>> 
>> Alex "Muleschlep®" Vangel: "Who's a "punk" [!] ?"
>> 
>> Gord McFee: "No-no, Alex, der PUNKT -- POINT! ... POINT!"
>> 
>> Vangel: "Huh?" [actually becomes miffed now!] "I don't do 'dog 
>> impressions' [!], Mr. McFee!"
>> 
>> ;-)


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Sat Apr 11 14:12:18 EDT 2009
Article: 2483337 of soc.culture.usa
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.usa
Subject: Re: Obama Laments His Inability To Speak Austrian
Reply-To: ebersdorf@gmail.com
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On Sat, 11 Apr 2009 07:13:49 -0700 (PDT), Transition Zone
 wrote:

>On Apr 8, 10:34 pm, Lonestar  wrote:
>> Dink wrote:
>> > There s a lot of I don t know what the term is inAustrian
>> > wheeling and dealing, and people are pursuing their interests, and
>> > everybody has their own particular issues and their own particular
>> > politics, he said in response to anAustrianreporter s question.
>>
>> LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>> He is a Dip Shit!
>> Robert(Tx)
>
>If he had known the difference, how do you think would he have known
>it?
>
>(not every ivy league minority knows about basic Central E.U.
>standards)

That really is pathetic. Americans seem to know or understand
practically nothing that happens beyond their front porch. These are
the same people that run around the world murdering millions to impose
their ignorant notions on the rest of the world.

There is no such thing as Austrian, since Austria has been
continuously part of Germany from the 9th century to the 19th century
and then off and on thereafter. Austrians, like the bulk of the Swiss,
are German-speaking and always have been.


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Sun Apr 12 14:59:14 EDT 2009
Article: 2007491 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why Gun Confiscation In America Is A Bad Idea
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On Sat, 11 Apr 2009 15:47:25 -0400, Roy Estrada 
wrote:

>Topaz wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 10 Apr 2009 18:00:17 -0700, Klaus Schadenfreude
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>>I proved what I had claimed. You just post rhetoric like your dead
>>>friend Goebbels.
>> 
>> 
>>  You only proved you have your head up a Jews aft end.
>
>
>What has Hitler and Goebbles personaly done for YOU lately?
>
>I mean after all, being as they both committed suicide and all before 
>you were born, what have they done for you, besides being known by the 
>entire educated world that knows they were both sick in the head?

Anybody who opposes Anglo-American world domination must be sick, at
least according to the standard Anglo-American propaganda. Roosevelt
was at least as sick as Hitler and Goebbels. Roosevelt was physically,
mentally, and spiritually diseased.

>
>Why do YOU love the retarded, Topaz?
>
>


From ebersdorf@gmail.com Sun Apr 12 14:59:14 EDT 2009
Article: 2007492 of alt.revisionism
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From: Johannes von Ebersdorf 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hitler Had His Support Base Firmly From Republicans -  Conservative Historian Jonah Goldberg
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On Sat, 11 Apr 2009 10:08:40 -0700 (PDT), Hiroshima Facts
 wrote:

>On Apr 11, 11:08 am, Johannes von Ebersdorf 
>wrote:
>> On Fri, 10 Apr 2009 20:59:57 -0700 (PDT), Hiroshima Facts
>>  wrote:
>> >On Apr 7, 8:53 am, "Bent Attorney Esq." 
>> >wrote:
>> >> On Apr 6, 8:37 pm, Tim Miller 
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > Topaz wrote:
>> >> > >   German leaders beleived in death before dishonor.
>>
>> >> > No, they didn't. Like you, they didn't even understand
>> >> > the DEFINITION of honor.
>>
>> >> That's a blatant lie.  If you want to see who is dishonorable take a
>> >> look at what the Americans did to the DEF's.  Hiroshima, Nagasaki,
>> >> Dresden.  But you know the score.
>>
>> >Hard to see what was dishonorable about them.  Hiroshima was a major
>> >military center and Nagasaki was an industrial center d