Archive/File: people/i/irving.david/libel.suit/transcripts/day003.18
Last-Modified: 2000/07/29

   A.   But I believe it is the next part you wish to continue with.
   Q.   It is the next part.  It is what Hans frank is reported as
        having said when he got back to the General Government on
        16th December 1941.  This is printed in what one might
        call the official common place book, would it be right?
        It is the Tagesbuch.  That is an official record, is it
        not, of some kind?
   A.   It is the abridged version of the multi-volumed diaries
        and conference records of the General Governor, Hans Frank.
   Q.   And you have used it yourself?
   A.   I used the original manuscript, yes.  I did not use the
        printed edition.  It is in my discovery.
   Q.   You have used this passage?
   A.   I have indeed and I used the original manuscript and not
        the printed version.
   Q.   Maybe so.  At the end of this first page, 31, in

.          P-159

        translation, perhaps here the German does not really
        matter, perhaps you will agree.  The first complete
        paragraph at the bottom of -- sorry, last paragraph on
the
        page:  "What is to happen to the Jews?  Do you believe
        that they will be lodged in settlements in Osland?"
That
        is the Baltic countries, is it not, Osland?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   "In Berlin we were told, 'Why all this trouble?  We
cannot
        use them in the Osland or the Reichcommissariat
either.
        Liquidate them yourselves!'".
                  Then goes on, apparently, Governor Frank:
"We
        must destroy the Jews wherever we encounter them and
        wherever it is possible in order to preserve the
entire
        structure of the Reich".  I would ask you to turn over
the
        page, Mr Irving, where at the bottom of page 32 you
will
        find the German of ----
   A.   That is what I have just been reading, yes.
   Q.   Yes.  Has Professor Browning translated it correctly?
   A.   Yes.  I used a different translation in my own book,
but
        this is an adequate translation.
   Q.   That is right, is it not?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   But he has not translated the last two lines on page
32.
        Would you please read those and tell us what they
mean?
   A.   Well, it is an incomplete fragment.
   Q.   He has put an ellipsis?

.          P-160



   A.   He has put what?
   Q.   He has put an ellipsis in, has he not, to show that --
--
   A.   Yes, but it is the second half of a sentence and, as
you
        know, in German, the Germans put their verbs at the
end,
        so it...
   Q.   Yes.  Be kind enough just to translate what we have.
   A.   "But if we then undertake incursions which in some way
        lead to a destructive result or success and, indeed,
in
        connection with the measure -- in connection with the
        great measure which is to be conferred upon at the
Reich"
         -- this is a reference to the coming Bunzig
conference,
        presumably.
   Q.   That is right.
   A.   It is a truncated sentence it is difficult to find
your
        way into without the beginning.  "Vernichtungs Erfolg"
is
        the word you want to see.  V-E-R-N-I-C-H-T-U-N-G-S
        E-R-F-O-L-G.
   Q.   Does it mean this, Mr Irving, at any rate the last
part of
        that first of the two bottom lines:  "It will anyway
come
        to a complete or successful destruction",
"Vernichtungs
        Erfolg"?
   A.   That would be a rigid and unacceptable translation.
        I would say, "If we succeed in wiping them out".
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Which does "Erfolg" mean?
   A.   "Success", "If we succeed in wiping them out",
        "Vernichtung" or "If we succeed in destroying them".

.          P-161



   MR RAMPTON:  A successful wiping out?
   A.   A successful wipe out, yes, but German sentences you
        frequently have to break up and recast in order to
make
        them acceptable.
   Q.   I am not playing tricks.  I will try to find the whole
of
        that.
   A.   I am trying to help you, Mr Rampton.
   Q.   I am being passed ----
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Can I just be clear?  Are you accepting
that
        what Hans Frank is recording here is what Hitler said
in
        Berlin to the Gauleiter?
   A.   Yes -- no, he has not made a reference to the
Gauleiters
        specifically.
   Q.   I know he has not made a reference to it ----
   A.   No.
   Q.   --- but he says:  "In Berlin we were told", and I
rather
        inferred that Mr Rampton was suggesting that that was
from
        Hitler's speech to the Gauleiter?
   A.   I think it would be quite a dangerous leap to make.
   Q.   Am I wrong about that?
   A.   It is put in ----
   MR RAMPTON:  No, it is not quite what I had put because I
do
        not have the evidence to make that kind of suggestion.
        I am suggesting that while Hans frank was in Berlin,
        somebody told him, and he was there probably amongst
other
        reasons for the occasion of Hitler's speech ----

.          P-162



   A.   Yes.
   Q.   -- somebody told him, it might have been Hitler, it
might
        have been Heydrich, that they have to see to the
        liquidation of the Jews themselves in the East.  That
does
        mean that, does it not?
   A.   I do not think the word they use is "liquidation".  He
        says "wipe out", "If we have a success in wiping them
out,
        destroying them", "Vernichtung", which can done in a
        number of ways as I gave the instance with
Christianity or
        with drug addiction.
   Q.   I am not sure you are right about that.  The word is
         "liquidiet zi selbe"?
   A.   I am sorry, I was looking at the wrong part.
   Q.   No the quote is: "Man hut uns in Berlin gesagt",  "We
were
        told in Berlin"?
   A.   Oh, unquestionably, yes.
   Q.   "Liquidate them yourselves"?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   So ----
   A.   And the reason that Browning knows about this is
because
        he found this quotation in my books.  I am the first
one
        to have dug it out.
   Q.   Brownie points to you, Mr Irving, but the fact is that
        Hans Frank is saying on this occasion when he gets
back to
        Poland -- I think this took place in Krakow, did it
not?
   A.   His headquarters is in Krakow, yes.

.          P-163



   Q.   He is saying:  "When we were in Berlin" ----
   A.   "They told us".
   Q.   --- "they told us, 'We can't solve the Jewish problem
for
        you.  We can't house them.  Liquidate them
yourselves"?
   A.   Yes.  Berlin, of course, was the seat of the
        Reichssicherheits Hauptamt, of Reinhardt Heydrich.
   Q.   I know, that is Heydrich's headquarters too.
   A.   Hitler's headquarters, well, in East Prussia, not in
        Berlin.
   Q.   Certainly it is though, whether Hitler took part in
those
        discussions or not, I cannot tell you.  I do not
propose
        that he did.  I do not ----
   A.   I think it is a very interesting fragment, a verbatim
        transcript to which one can attach a great deal of
        importance rather than reported third person
subjunctive,
        non-subjunctive stuff.  This is Hans Frank's actual
words
        taken down by a stenographer and that is why I was
very
        pleased to quote them in full.
   Q.   Yes, surely.  We are not here necessarily, Mr Irving,
        talking about the Jews that the Einsatzgruppen found
in
        Russia; rather the contrary, do you not think?
   A.   The German Jews.
   Q.   We are talking about two groups of Jews if we are
talking
        about Hans Frank and the General Government?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   We are talking about German and other Jews, Slavakia
or

.          P-164



        wherever else, French, Dutch, Belgium and so on, that
were
        shipped to East, transported I mean, but we are also
        talking about the indigenous Jews at Poland, are we
not?
   A.   Primarily at this time the indigenous Jews.  I do not
        think that any major shipment of Jews had started from
        Western Europe in Poland or the General Government at
this
        time.
   Q.   Do you agree that Eichmann said at the Bunzig
conference,
        I think it was he, it may have been somebody else, it
may
        have been somebody else who gave the figure, there
were
        roughly two and quarter, two and a half million Jews
        living in Poland at that time in early 1942?
   A.   That is almost certainly the right figure, but
Eichmann
        did not speak at the Bunzig conference.  He just kept
the
        minutes as I understand it.
   Q.   But that is the figure that was given at the Bunzig
        conference?
   A.   I will take your word for it, Mr Rampton.
   Q.   You have read it.  I am sure you have read the
protocal,
        the minute or whatever it is.  So what Hans Frank is
        saying here is:  "The Jews that we are responsible for
        (getting rid of) numbering roughly two and a quarter
        million, we have been told by Berlin we have to
liquidate
        ourselves".  That is what it is saying, is it not?
   A.   No.  What he is saying is:  "Do not start dumping Jews
on
        us.  We have got no room for the ones we have got.
Solve

.          P-165



        your own problems".
   Q.   No, "in Berlin we were told"?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   Not, "I said to the people in Berlin"?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   "Man hat" is passive?
   A.   Yes.
   Q.   "Uns gesagt" means "they told us in Berlin"?
   A.   "Why all this bother?  Why all this fuss and bother?"
   Q.   That is right.
   A.   They are talking about what they are going to be doing
        with the Jews that people are talking about now
tossing
        out of Western Europe, and Hans Frank has been
fighting
        hand and foot at having any dumped in his domain.
   Q.   Yes.  He has been told he has got to do it himself?
   A.   No, he has been you take what you are given.  He is
        saying, "I don't want them."  I know the background to
        this story, Mr Rampton.
   Q.   What do the words mean, I am sorry, Mr Irving, I
thought
        you had agreed this was an accurate translation?
   A.   It is accurate.
   Q.   "In Berlin we were told, 'Why all this trouble?  We
cannot
        use them in the Osterland or Reichskomissariat either.
        Liquidate them yourselves.'"?
   A.   No.  No one is talking about shipping Jews from the
        Osterland or the Ukraine into Berlin.  The shipment is

.          P-166



        going other way round.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  What Mr Rampton is putting to you is that
        that phrase "liquidate them yourselves" is in effect a
        direction from Berlin to the General Government.
   A.   No, sir.  I read it differently both in the original
and
        even now.  This is Hans Frank recalling what he told
the
        Berliners saying, "Stop dumping your Jews on us, you
solve
        your own problems, you liquidate them yourselves".
   MR RAMPTON:  I am going to refer you to the full text of
what
        Hans Frank said in a moment.  Can you first of all
read
        your own version of this, please, on page 428 of
Hitler's
        War 1991.
   A.   Can we look at it in the earlier version because it is
        totally unchanged?
   Q.   No, it is not in the earlier version so far as I know.
   A.   It definitely it is.  It is in every book that I have
        written.  Which page, Mr Rampton?
   Q.   If you want the earlier version, I am not sure it is
in
        the earlier version, but I will check that.  Yes, it
is.
        If you want to use the earlier version, first, I have
no
        problem with that.  Page 332.
   A.   Yes, "Yet the blood purge continued".
   Q.   Yes.  I am waiting for his Lordship's file to emerge.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Hitler's War.
   MR RAMPTON:  It is 1977 Hitler's War, my Lord, I think the
        first volume.

.          P-167



   MR RAMPTON:  It is I think more or less identical to what
is in
        the 1991 edition.
   MR JUSTICE GRAY:  Have you got a reference for that?
   MR RAMPTON:  Yes, that is page 427 it starts, the last
large
        paragraph, the last three lines.  I will read.  It
        immediately follows the reference to the Himmler
telephone
        note of 1st December.  Mr Irving writes: "Yet the
blood
        purge continued".
   A.   Shall I read it?  It is my book.

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