The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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Last-Modified: 2000/09/01

                                                  [Page 307]


SATURDAY, 29th JUNE, 1946

THE PRESIDENT: I will deal with the supplementary
applications for documents.

The first application on this list was on behalf of the
defendant von Neurath, and that has been dealt with.

The second was on behalf of the defendant Streicher. That
was withdrawn.

The third was on behalf of the defendant Donitz for an
affidavit of former Fleet Judge Jakobs. That application is

The next two, 4 and 5, were on behalf of the defendant von
Neurath. Those have been withdrawn.

The next three, 6, 7, and 8, on behalf of the defendant
Rosenberg, are denied.

The next, on behalf of the defendant von Papen, have all
been dealt with during the presentation of the defence on
behalf of von Papen.

The next two, on behalf of the defendant Bormann, are

The last three, 12, 13, and 14, on behalf of the defendant
Goering, are subject to the possibility of agreement being
reached upon the question of whether affidavits are to be
presented or witnesses called, and therefore that
application is postponed.

That is all.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, before the Tribunal goes on
with the business of the day, I should like to inform the
Tribunal of the results of my inquiries as to outstanding
witnesses and perhaps these could be supplemented by any of
the learned counsel.

My Lord, as far as I can see, there are the witnesses whom
your Lordship has just mentioned, of the defendant Goering,
dealing with the question of Katyn.

My Lord, the next witnesses that were outstanding were three
that the Tribunal allowed to be called for cross-examination
if desired in respect to the case of the defendant
Kaltenbrunner. I have just had a word with Dr. Kauffmann and
he says that he will not require the witnesses Tiefenbacher,
Steinbauer and Strupp for cross-examination.

As far as my information goes, the next is Admiral Boehm in
the case of the defendant Raeder.

THE PRESIDENT: Before you get to that, Sir David, on the
list that I have there was a witness called Strupp for

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Yes, my Lord, there are three,
Tiefenbacher, Steinbauer, and Strupp. Dr. Kauffmann tells me
he does not want these.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Then you were speaking about the
defendant Raeder.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, there is the question of
Admiral Boehm. Dr. Siemers was going to let the prosecution
see an affidavit and I have not seen it yet, but, my Lord, I
do not anticipate that the prosecution will require that
witness unless the affidavit is in very different form from
what I expect.

My Lord, the only other witnesses that I know about are the
three for which application was made by Dr. Fritz yesterday
in the present case. The Tribunal is considering that.


                                                  [Page 308]

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord that, as far as I can see,
is the full extent of the outstanding witnesses, unless I
have missed some.

THE PRESIDENT: Was there an application for witnesses from
the defendant Bormann on the 26th of June?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Well, I asked Dr. Bergold this
morning. He has only got one witness that he is calling, he
told me, but he unfortunately is not here today.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, I am told he has just now arrived.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Your Lordship's information is later
than mine.

THE PRESIDENT: It has only this moment come through.

But so far as the others are concerned, there is only the
one that Dr. Bergold wants to call now?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: So Dr. Bergold informed me this

DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Tribunal, only one witness
has arrived. But I have to put in several more requests
which have not been decided on and I cannot say whether
these witnesses will ever arrive or whether they can be
found. The Bormann case is characterised by the fact that
not only the defendant cannot be found but almost all the
witnesses cannot be found either. In the course of today's
proceedings on the Bormann case I should like to put a
special application before the High Tribunal which I do not
wish to do just now.

THE PRESIDENT: One moment. Will you tell us exactly which
witnesses you are referring to?

In your letter of the 29th June you withdrew your
application for Fraulein Christians.

DR. BERGOLD: Yes, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kloepfer is the witness who just arrived
in Nuremberg.

DR. BERGOLD: Yes. Then there are the witnesses Kupfer and
Rattenhuber who are still not here and also the witness

THE PRESIDENT: Well, Helmut Friederich has not been located?

DR. BERGOLD: No, he has not been found.

THE PRESIDENT: Are you wanting to call Fraulein Christians?

DR. BERGOLD: She has not yet arrived either. She was at Camp
Oberursel She received leave and while on leave disappeared
- obviously she has fled.

THE PRESIDENT: Have you got your application of the 26th
June or did you make an application of the 26th June?

DR. BERGOLD: Yes, I did make an application.

THE PRESIDENT: Whom did you ask for then?

DR. BERGOLD: Just a minute, I have to consult my secretary.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Fraulein Christians and Dr. Helmut

THE PRESIDENT: Well, Dr. Kloepfer and Friedrich.

SIR. DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Yes, and Fraulein Christians, my

DR. BERGOLD: On the 26th June I applied for the witnesses
Falkenhorst, Rattenhuber and Kempka. I could dispense with
Falkenhorst if I might have Dr. Kloepfer instead.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, Dr. Kloepfer is the only one who has
arrived, as I understand it.

                                                  [Page 309]

DR. BERGOLD: Yes, the only one who has arrived, Mr.

THE PRESIDENT: What the Tribunal wants to know is how many
you want to call now and with reference to the others you
had better withdraw them if you cannot find them.

DR. BERGOLD: Very well, your Lordship, I wanted to put in an
application for postponement. The witness Dr. Kloepfer has
only just arrived. Up to now I have not had a chance to talk
to him and I consider it unfair to him to have to testify
immediately. He is not prepared, he does not know the
documents which have been presented by the prosecution, and
I myself do not know whether he has any knowledge about the
things on which I want to question him. Therefore, I should
like to apply for the proceedings in the case of Bormann to
be postponed until 10 a.m. on Monday to give me the
opportunity to see my one, chief witness, and to discuss the
case with him. I do not even know whether I want to have the
witness interrogated for he may possibly make statements
that are quite irrelevant. It is not my fault that I have
not seen him until now. I applied many months ago to have
him brought here and I would not have found him even today
if, at the last moment, I had not had the very kind
assistance of the American prosecution. I have also spoken
to Sir David Maxwell Fyfe and I consider a postponement
until Monday at ten would be quite reasonable in order to
give me time to prepare, as the defendant has not been here
and my witnesses have not been here and I have not been able
to prepare anything.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, Dr. Bergold, you have had many months
in which to prepare your case and the Tribunal has put the
matter back for you already for a very long time and this
witness is now here. You can see him immediately and the
Tribunal thinks you ought to go on. You must have known that
the case would come on in the same way every other case has
come on in its proper place, subject to the licence which
has been allowed to you to have your case put back to the
end, and all your applications for witnesses and documents
put back to the very latest possible moment. The witness is
here and we still have some time to deal with the witnesses
for Fritzsche and documents.

The Tribunal thinks in those circumstances you ought to go

DR. BERGOLD: Mr. President, it is quite correct I have had
months at my disposal, but if I can obtain no witnesses and
no information - I ask the Tribunal to put themselves in my
place. Of what use to me are many months of waiting, months
during which I could do nothing? The witnesses were not
here, nobody could tell me where the witness Kloepfer could
be found. He was only found at the very last moment. I
cannot discuss the entire case with him in fifteen minutes.
I am just asking for a very short postponement until Monday
morning. The Tribunal will lose only a very few hours
through that. It is not my fault that I have been assigned
such an unusual defendant, one who is not present.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Bergold, the only thing you propose to
prove by this witness is the alleged fact that Bormann is
dead and any evidence he can give about that. That is what
the application says.

DR. BERGOLD: No, may it please the Tribunal, that is a
mistake. The witness Kloepfer cannot testify to that. He can
only give his opinion as to the rest of the Indictment,
namely whether Bormann is guilty or not. Only the witnesses
Christians, Lueger and Rattenhuber can give evidence as to
the death of the defendant Bormann. But the witness Kloepfer
can only testify concerning the Indictment itself.

THE PRESIDENT: Where is the application for Kloepfer? Where
is your application?

DR. BERGOLD: It is my application of the 26th of May.

THE PRESIDENT: Let me see it. Have you got it there? Dr.
Bergold, have you not anything else at all in the way of
documents or evidence that you can continue with without
calling this witness Kloepfer?

                                                  [Page 310]

DR. BERGOLD: My Lord, the data at my disposal are so small
and meagre that I myself do not know whether they apply
until I have questioned the witness. Up to this point I have
been dependent on pure supposition. I have not been able to
receive or obtain any effective data. They are all legal
constructions which can be made untenable by one word from
the witness.

MR. DODD: Mr. President, I have an objection to any
postponement for this case. As the Tribunal has pointed out,
counsel has had months, and has had every co-operation from
our office, both for his documents and for his seeking out
of his witnesses, and if he would stop talking and go out
and talk with his witness, who is here now, I think he might
be prepared to go on with his case.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Bergold, the Tribunal will go on with the
case against the defendant Fritzsche now, and in the
meantime you will have an opportunity of seeing this witness
Kloepfer, and if after seeing him you wish to make further
application, you may do so, but the Tribunal hopes that, if
you can ascertain what the nature of his evidence is, you
will be able to go on with it.

I now have your - I had it only in German before but I now
have it in English - your application for the witness
Kloepfer, and a summary of it is that he was head of Section
3 in the Party Chancellery "and he can deal with questions
relating to constitution of law and elaboration of laws and
that he is to testify that the activity of Bormann in the
proclamation of laws and ordinances was an entirely
subordinate one." That is the only reason why you allege
that you want to call him in your application.

DR. BERGOLD: That is my supposition. There is the
possibility that the witness, of course, really knows much
more, for he was one of the chief collaborators. I drew up
my application very carefully, because as a lawyer I did not
want to submit a fantasy to the Court.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, I have said what you can do with
reference to Kloepfer and are you still asking to call a
witness called Falkenhorst?

DR. BERGOLD: I can decide on that only after I have talked
with the witness Kloepfer. In all probability I shall forgo
the calling of this witness, Falkenhorst.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, you heard what I said, Dr. Bergold. You
can now see Dr. Kloepfer.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, I only wanted the Tribunal
to know that that was the position as to witnesses and when
your Lordship asked me, I said that the process of finishing
off witnesses might take two days. My Lord, subject to the
Katyn witnesses, it might take much less than that, as I am
at present advised.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes. And when shall we be informed what the
position is with reference to the Katyn witnesses, as to
whether there is an agreement as to using affidavits or
calling witnesses?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, I will make inquiries and
try to let your Lordship know at the end of the session.

THE PRESIDENT: I take it that we shall not be able to go
into that this morning.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: I do not think so. Apart from that,
there are certain outstanding interrogatories which counsel
for the defence may want to refer the Tribunal to, but that
is the only other matter I know. From the point of view of
the prosecution, there may be a few documents which will be
put in more or less to clarify points that have arisen
during the case, rather than formal evidence and rebuttal.
They will be quite small in number and will not take any

THE PRESIDENT: Were there any documents on behalf of the
defendant von Neurath which have got to be dealt with?

                                                  [Page 311]

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My recollection is that there were
one or two interrogatories, but apart from that I do not
know of any others.

THE PRESIDENT: Perhaps those matters had better be gone into
on Monday morning.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: If your Lordship pleases.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, the Tribunal hopes that counsel for the
defendants understand that the Tribunal will expect them to
be prepared to go on with their speeches on behalf of the
defendants directly the evidence is finished.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, it is to try to give some
indication of the time that I ventured to intervene this


SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: As I understand it, the proposal is
that Professor Jahrreiss will make his general speech first.


SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: I understand the Professor is ready
to do that and I thought it would be useful if it were known
that that might occur even on Monday.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes. Then, now, Dr. Fritz, perhaps you will
continue with your witness.



BY DR. FRITZ (counsel for the defendant Fritzsche):

Mr. President, gentlemen of the Tribunal, I beg to be
permitted to continue with the examination of the  witness
von Schirrmeister.

Q. Witness, yesterday, at the end of the session, we stopped
at the point dealing with the anti-Semitism expressed by the
defendant Fritzsche in his radio speeches; in connection
with that point, I have a further question. According to the
statement made by Dr. Goebbels: To where were the evacuated
Jews to be sent?

A. Up to the first year of the Russian campaign, Dr.
Goebbels, in the conferences over which he presided,
repeatedly mentioned the Madagascar plan. Later he changed
this and said that a new Jewish State was to be formed in
the East, to which the Jews were to be taken.

Q. Do you know whether, in dealing with reports from abroad
concerning alleged German atrocities, not only toward the
Jews but toward other peoples as well, Fritzsche always had
inquiries made at the RSHA or other offices concerned?

A. Yes. Not only with regard to atrocity reports but all
propaganda reports from abroad which were unpleasant to us.
He made inquiries sometimes at the office of Muller, at the
RSHA in Berlin, and sometimes he inquired of the authorities
that were directly concerned in these matters.

Q. And what other agencies were concerned besides the RSHA
where he might have made inquiries?

A. For example, the Ministry for Food, the Armament
Ministry, the OKW; it all depended.

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