The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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                                                  [Page 200]


WEDNESDAY, 26th JUNE, 1946

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will not sit on Thursday,
to-morrow, afternoon, in open session, but will sit in
closed session. That is to say, we will sit to-morrow,
Thursday, from 10.00 till 1.00 in open session, and we will
sit in the afternoon in closed session.

On Saturday morning, the Tribunal will sit in open session
from 10.00 till 1.00.

MAJOR-GENERAL RAGINSKY: Mr. President, I am aware that
yesterday when I submitted Exhibit USSR 494, the necessary
copies were not submitted to the Tribunal. I am very sorry
about this, and I would ask you to accept the necessary
copies now.




Q. Let us go back, defendant, to your warning issued in
August, 1939. If I understood you correctly, you said here
before the Tribunal that this warning was issued in
connection with the military situation of the time; is that

A. With reference to the military situation nothing had
happened at that time; absolutely no political tension had
become noticeable in the meantime, therefore it was not
directly in connection with the military situation. There
was certainly nothing wrong at that time.

Q. It did not depend on the military situation? Do you
acknowledge that by this order of yours, or warning, you had
decided on a system of hostages?

A. I did not understand the question.

Q. I am going to repeat my question. I am asking you, do you
acknowledge that by means of this warning of August, 1939 -
I am submitting this document as evidence as Exhibit USSR
490 - that by this order you were setting up a system of

A. I did not understand.

Q. Was it correctly translated to you just now?

A. Yes, but the translation did not come through on the last
question, or rather the last sentence. I did not understand
the last sentence.

Q. Well, I will put you -

A. Yes; but I did not understand the last sentence of your

Q. I shall try to say it in such a way that you will
understand it now. In this order of yours, in the
penultimate paragraph, it is stated: "The responsibility for
all acts of sabotage will be borne not only by individuals
but by the entire Czechoslovak population." This means that
not only guilty persons were to be punished, but that there
were punishments for innocent people too. With this order
you inaugurated a massacre against the Czech population.

A. Not at all. It only meant that the moral responsibility
for any possible acts was to be laid to the account of the
Czech people.

Q. Well, in Lidice, was this not applied in practice? Was it
only a question of the moral responsibility there?

A. Yes. Yes.

                                                  [Page 201]

Q. In this order you state the following: "Those who do not
take these necessities into account will be considered
enemies of the Reich." To the enemies of the Reich you
applied only the principle of moral responsibility and
nothing else?

A. Yes, if someone did not obey orders, then naturally he
was punished.

Q. That is exactly what I am trying to determine and that is
why I put this point to you, that just by this order of
August, 1939, You set up the beginning of a massacre and
punishments applied to innocent people.

A. Well, I do not know how you can draw this conclusion from
this warning.

Q. We are going now to the deductions which we can make out
of this. In the report of the Czechoslovak Government,
submitted as evidence in Exhibit USSR 60, which is a report
on investigations of the crimes committed by you and your
collaborators, all this has been stated, and you just flatly
deny all this documentary evidence. I am not going to argue
with you regarding this document but I am going to read into
the record some of the testimony by the witnesses, and I
would like you to say whether you corroborate this evidence
or whether you deny it. I am going to read into the record
an excerpt from the testimony of the former Minister of
Finance, Josef Kalfus, of 8th November, 1945.

MAJOR-GENERAL RAGINSKY: The Tribunal will find these
excerpts on Page 12 of the British text, Exhibit USSR 60.

Q. (continuing): Kalfus stated:

  "The economic system introduced by Neurath and after him
  by the later German regime, was nothing else than
  systematic, organized robbery. As to the filling of key
  positions in the Czech industry and finance, it should be
  pointed out that, together with Neurath, a vast economic
  machinery was installed which immediately filled the
  chief positions in industry. Skoda Works, Brno Armament
  Works, Steel Works at Vitkovice, important banks -
  Bohemian Discount Bank, Lander Bank, and Bohemian Union
  Bank, were occupied as well."

Do you corroborate this evidence?

A. I talked about this matter in great detail yesterday, and
I refer you to my statement I made yesterday. I have nothing
to add.

Q. Thus, you do not corroborate this evidence?

A. Not in the least.

Q. The former President of Czechoslovakia, Richard Bienert,
during the interrogation of 8th November, 1945, stated ...

MAJOR-GENERAL RAGINSKY: Mr. President, this excerpt is on
Page 13 of the English text of Exhibit USSR 60.

Q. (continuing)

  "When we got to know him more closely, we noticed that
  he, Neurath, was ruthless toward the Czechs. I knew that
  it was Neurath, as Reich Protector of Bohemia and
  Moravia, who subjected the political administration in
  Bohemia and Moravia to German control, both the State
  administration and the local government as well. I
  remember also that Neurath caused the abolition of the
  Regional School Councils, and the appointment of German
  School Inspectors in their place. He ordered the
  dissolution of the regional representative bodies; lie
  caused Czech workers to be sent to the Reich from April,
  1939, onwards, in order to work for the war machine of
  the Reich. He ordered the closing down of the Czech
  universities and of many Czech secondary and elementary
  schools. He abolished the Czech gymnastic groups and
  associations, such as 'Sokol' and 'Orel' and ordered the
  confiscation of all the property of these gymnastic
  organizations; he abolished the Czech recreation homes
  and sanatoria for young workmen and students, and ordered
  the confiscation of their property. The Gestapo carried
  out the arrests, but on the order of the Reich Protector.
  I myself was arrested on 1st September, 1939, as well."

                                                  [Page 202]

Will you still deny this testimony?

A. No, no. About all the matters which are listed here, I
spoke yesterday in great detail. I do not intend to repeat
it all over again now. Moreover, it seems peculiar to me
that Mr. Bienert of all people, who knew perfectly well what
I had ordered and what my relations were to the Gestapo and
so forth, that he of all people should say things like that.

Q. Very well. Let us look at some other testimony. The
former Prime Minister of the so-called Protectorate, Dr.
Krejci, during the interrogations on 8th November, 1945,
stated ...

MAJOR-GENERAL RAGINSKY: Mr. President, this excerpt can be
found on Page 17 of the English text of Exhibit USSR 60.

Q. (continuing):

  "I know," Krejci testified, "that the gymnastic
  associations have been disbanded and their property
  confiscated at the order of the Reich Protector, and
  their funds and equipment handed over to be used by
  German associations such as SS, SA, Hitler Youth and so
  on. On 1st September, 1939 when Poland was attacked by
  the German army, arrests took place on a large scale,
  especially arrests of army officers, intelligentsia and
  important political personalities. The arrests were made
  by the Gestapo, but it could not be done without the
  approval of the Reich Protector."

I am reading into the record one more excerpt from the next
page of the testimony

  "As far as the Jewish problem was concerned, the
  Government of the Protectorate was forced by the Reich
  Protector into a campaign against the Jews and when this
  pressure had no result, the Germans of the Reich
  Protector's office started persecuting the Jews according
  to the German laws. The result was that tens of thousands
  of Jews were persecuted and lost their lives and

Are you going to deny this testimony, too?

A. With reference to the order which you mentioned at the
beginning, concerning the physical training schools, I have
to tell you that that was a police measure which I had not
ordered; and I go on to repeat, as I said yesterday, that
the arrests at the beginning of the war were carried out by
the Gestapo, but on the strength of a direct order from
Berlin, without my even having heard about the matter. I did
not learn about it until afterwards. Finally, with reference
to the Jewish problem which is mentioned in the end, the
statement, which is contained in the Indictment, I think,
namely, that I had attempted to get the Government of
Czechoslovakia to introduce anti-Jewish laws, is an
incorrect statement. I, or rather my State Secretary, talked
to Mr. Elias, as far as I know. I myself have never talked
to him. I only talked to Dr. Hacha afterwards on a later
occasion, when there was an attempt to introduce racial laws
with reference to the Czechs. Dr. Hacha objected to this and
I told him that I would be responsible for his not having to
do this. The introduction of the anti-Jewish laws was
carried out by a decree of mine, to be sure, because as
early as the beginning of April, 1939, I had received orders
to introduce the anti-Jewish legislation in the Protectorate
which was not incorporated in the Reich. I delayed this step
until July by means of all sorts of inquiries in Berlin, so
as to give time to the Jews to prepare themselves in some
way or other. These are the actual facts.

Q. Tell me, do you know Dr. Havelka?

A. I know Herr Havelka, yes.

Q. He knew exactly about your conversations with Hacha?

A. Yes, how much he knew about that, I don't know. Herr
Havelka came to see me once or twice. He was Minister of
Transport, I think.

Q. Yes, that is quite correct. He was the Minister of
Transport, but before that, he was the head of the
chancellery of Hacha's office.

                                                  [Page 203]

Havelka, during his interrogation on 9th November last year,
gave the following testimony, which can be found on Pages 18
and 19 of the English text of Exhibit USSR 60. I am quoting
an excerpt.

  "He" - Neurath - "was not interested in the Czech nation,
  and interventions by Cabinet members and Dr. Hacha,
  pressing Czech demands, were on the whole without any
  There were the following actions in particular:
  Arrests of Czechoslovak officers, intelligentsia, members
  of the Czechoslovak Legion of the First World War and
  politicians. At the time of the attack on Poland by the
  German army about six to eight thousand persons were
  arrested. They became hostages. The Germans themselves
  described them as 'held in protective custody.' The
  majority of those hostages were never interrogated and
  all steps taken at the office of the Reich Protector in
  favour of these unfortunate men were without result.
  Neurath, as the only representative of the Reich
  Government in the territory of the Protectorate of
  Bohemia and Moravia, was responsible for the execution of
  nine students on 17th, November 1939. The execution was
  carried out soon after ..."

THE PRESIDENT: General Raginsky, would it not be better and
perhaps fairer to the defendant to ask him one question at a
time? You are reading large passages of these documents
which contain many questions. Perhaps you could take these
two paragraphs you read now about the arrest of officers and
ask him whether he says those are true or untrue, and then
go on to the other paragraphs you want to. It is very
difficult for him to answer a great number of questions at
one time.

GENERAL RAGINSKY: Mr. President, he has these documents
before him and he is acquainted with the testimonies in
question, but I will take into consideration what you have
just told me. I will speak about the shooting of the
students separately.


Q. Do you corroborate this part of the evidence which I have
just read into the record, regarding the hostages?

A. About the arrest of the members of the so-called Vlajka,
at the beginning of September, 1939, I have spoken earlier,
and I spoke in detail about that yesterday.

I said that these arrests - I am repeating it once more -
were carried out by the Gestapo without my knowledge. Mr.
Havelka's statement, that no steps had been taken in the
interest of these people, is untrue. He ought to know that I
continuously fought for these people and that a large number
of them were released through my efforts.

Q. Very well, let us go over to another question. Here,
before this Tribunal, a certain document has already been
introduced several times under No. USSR 223. This is the
diary of Frank.

GENERAL RAGINSKY: Mr. President, I am not referring to Karl
Hermann Frank, who was sentenced to death for his crimes,
but it is the defendant Frank that I am speaking .about.
This excerpt has already been quoted here, but I should like
to put a question to the defendant about it. I shall read it
into the record:

  "During an interview with a correspondent of the
  Volkischer Beobachter in 1942, the defendant Frank stated
  as follows: 'In Prague, for instance, some red placards
  were put out saying that many Czechs were being shot that
  day. Then I said to myself: If I had to issue an order
  for such placards to be put up regarding every nine Poles
  who were shot, then there wouldn't be enough timber in
  Poland to manufacture enough paper for such placards.'"


Q. Please tell me if it is true that such red placards were
put up in Prague?

                                                  [Page 204]

A. I mentioned that yesterday. I have already said yesterday
that this was the poster where my signature was misused, and
that I hadn't seen it in advance. That is that red poster.

Q. Well, if you haven't seen these posters, will you please
look at one of them. We are going to show it to you now.

A. Yes, I know it very well.

THE PRESIDENT: General Raginsky, he didn't say he hadn't
seen it. He said it was put up without his knowledge.

GENERAL RAGINSKY: Mr. President, I shall come back to this,
but I should like to establish that these were the red
posters which were mentioned by Frank in his diary, and I
should like to submit this poster as Exhibit USSR 489.

I should like to read it into the record; it is very short,
and it won't take much time. The text is as follows:

  "In spite of repeated serious warnings, a number of Czech
  intellectuals, in collaboration with emigre circles
  abroad, are trying to disturb peace and order in the
  Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia by committing major
  or minor acts of resistance. In this connection it was
  possible to prove that the ringleaders of these
  resistance acts are especially to be found in the Czech
  universities. Since on 28th October and 15th November
  these elements committed acts of physical violence
  against individual Germans, the Czech universities were
  closed for the duration of three years, nine of the
  perpetrators were shot, and a considerable number of the
  participants were arrested.
  Signed: The Reich Protector of Bohemia and Moravia Baron
  von Neurath, 17th November, 1939."


Q. You state here that you never signed this warning?

A. Yes, indeed. I have already explained yesterday or the
day before how this came about, to wit, in my absence.

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