The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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Q. Witness, I now come to one of the most important
questions. In 1942, in Berlin, Vienna, Heidelberg, and
Munich, you made speeches before large audiences. What was
the purpose of these speeches and what were the consequences
for you?

A. The speeches can be read. It was the last effort that I
made to bring home to Hitler, by means of public speeches to
the German people, the truth that the rule of law was
immortal. I stated at that time that a Reich without law and
without humanity could not last long and more in that vein.
After I had been under police surveillance for several days
in Munich I was relieved of all my Party offices. Since this
was a matter of German domestic politics under the
sovereignty of the German Reich, I refrain from making any
more statements about it here.

Q. Is it correct that about this time you tendered your
resignation? If so, what was the answer?

A. I was, so to speak, in a continuous state of resigning
and always I received the same answer: that for reasons
connected with foreign policy I could not be released.

Q. I originally intended to read to you from your diary a
number of quotations which the prosecution has submitted,
but in view of the fact that the prosecution may do that in
the course of the cross-examination, I forgo it in order to
save time. I have no more questions to put to the witness.

THE PRESIDENT: Does any other member of the defendants'
counsel wish to ask any questions?

Does the prosecution wish to cross-examine?



Q. Defendant, I should like to know what precisely was your
legal status and what exactly was the position you occupied
in the system of the Fascist

                                                  [Page 118]

State. Please answer me: when were you promoted to the post
of Governor of occupied Poland? To whom were you directly

A. The date is 26 October, 1939. On that day, the directive
about the Governor General was issued.

Q. You will remember, that by Hitler's order of 12 October,
1939, you were directly subordinated to Hitler, were you

A. I did not get the first part. What was it, please?

Q. Do you remember Hitler's order concerning your
appointment as Governor General of Poland? This order was
dated 12 October, 1939.

A. That was in no way effective, because the decree came
into force on 26 October, 1939, and you can find it in the
Reichsgesetzblatt. Before that, as Chief of Administration,
I was with the Military Commander, von Rundstedt. I have
explained that already.

Q. By this order of Hitler you were directly subordinate to
him. Do you remember? Paragraph 3, sub-paragraph 1 of this

A. What kind of an order is that? I should like to see it.
The chiefs of administration in the occupied territories
were all immediately under the Fuehrer.

Well, I could say in elucidation that paragraph states:

  "The Governor General is immediately subordinate to me."

But paragraph 9 of this decree states:

  "This decree becomes valid as soon as I have withdrawn
  from the Commander in Chief of the Army the task of
  carrying out the Military Administration."

And this withdrawal, that is, the coming into force of this
decree took place on 26 October.

Q. I fully agree with you, and we have information to that
effect in the book which you evidently remember. It is Book
"V." You do remember this book of the Government General?

A. It is of course in the decree.

Q. Well, when this order came into force, to whom were you
directly subordinate?

A. What shall I read here? There are several entries here.
What is your wish? To what do you wish me to answer?

Q. It states that this order came into force on 26 October.
Well, when this order actually became valid, to whom were
you subordinate? Was there, or was there not, any further
order issued by Hitler?

A. There is only one basic decree about the Governor
General. That is this one.

Q. Quite correct. There were no further instructions.

A. Oh yes, there are some, for instance -

Q. I understand that but there was no other decree
determining the system of administration, was there?

A. May I say that you can find it best on Page A-100 in your
book, and there you have the decree of the Fuehrer verbatim.

Q. Quite right.

A. And it says also in paragraph 9:

"This decree shall come into effect ..."

and so on, and that date was 26 October.

Q. Yes, that is quite correct. That means that after 26
October you, as Governor General for occupied Poland, were
directly subordinate to Hitler?

A. Yes.

Q. Then perhaps you may remember when, and by whom, you were
entrusted with the execution, in occupied Poland, of the
Four-Year Plan?

A. By Goering.

                                                  [Page 119]

Q. That means that you were Goering's plenipotentiary for
the execution of the Four-Year Plan in Poland, were you not?

A. The story of that mission is very briefly told. The
activities of several plenipotentiaries of the Four-Year
Plan in the Government General were such that I was greatly
concerned about it. Therefore, I approached the Reich
Marshal and asked him to appoint me trustee for the Four-
Year Plan. That was later - in January -

Q. No, it was in December.

A. Yes, it was later, according to this decree.

Q. This means that as from the beginning of December, 1939,
you were Goering's plenipotentiary for the Four-Year Plan?

A. Goering's? I was plenipotentiary for the Four-Year Plan.

Q. Now perhaps you can remember that in October, t939, the
first decree regarding the organisation of Administration in
the Government General was promulgated?

A. Yes. That is here, is it not?

Q. Perhaps you recall paragraph 3 of that decree.

A. Yes.

Q. It says that the Director of Administration of occupied
Poland and also the chief of the S.S. and of the police were
directly subordinate to you.

Does that not prove that, from the first day of your
appointment as Governor General, you undertook the control
of the Police and S.S. and, consequently, the responsibility
for their actions?

A. No. I definitely answer that question with no, and I
would like to make an explanation.

Q. What interests me, defendant, is how could that be
explained otherwise?

THE PRESIDENT: Let him make his explanation.

Defendant, you may make your explanation.

THE WITNESS: I want to make a very short statement. There is
an old legal principle which says that nobody can transfer
more rights to anybody else than he has himself. What I have
stated here was the ideal which I had before me and it is as
it should have been. Everybody has to admit that it is
natural and logical that the police should be subordinate to
the Chief of Administration. The Fuehrer, who alone could
decide, did not make that decree. I did not have the power
and the authority to put this decree, which I drew up, into


Q. Then do I understand you to say that this paragraph 3 was
an ideal which you strove to attain but which you were never
able to attain?

A. I beg your pardon, but I could not understand that
question. A little slower please, and may I have the
translation into German a little slower?

Q. Do you want me to repeat the question?



Q. I asked you, does this mean that your statement can be
interpreted as follows: Paragraph 3 of this decree was an
ideal which you persistently strove to attain, which you
openly professed, but which you were never able to attain.
Would that be correct?

A. Which I could not attain; and that can be seen by the
fact that, later, it was found necessary to appoint a
special State Secretary for Security in a last effort to
find a way out of the difficulty.

Q. And that is what I mean to take up now. Maybe you recall
that in April, 1942, special negotiations took place between
you and Himmler. Did these negotiations take place in April,

A. Yes. Of course I cannot tell you the date offhand but it
was always my endeavour -

                                                  [Page 120]

Q. To verify this, I can turn to your diary. Perhaps you
will recall that as a result of these negotiations an
understanding was reached between you and Himmler.

A. Yes, an understanding was reached.

Q. In order to refresh your memory on the subject I shall
ask that the relevant volume of your diary be handed to you
so that you may have the text before you.

A. Yes, I am ready.

Q. I would refer you to paragraph 2 of this agreement. It

THE PRESIDENT: Where can we find this? Is it under the date
14 April, 1942?

COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes; that is quite right, 14 April, 1942.

THE PRESIDENT: I think we have it.

COLONEL SMIRNOV: It is Exhibit USSR-223. It has been
translated into English and I shall hand it over

THE PRESIDENT: I think we have it now; we were only trying
to find the place.

COLONEL SMIRNOV: It is on Page 18 of the English text.



Q. I would ask you to recall the contents. It says:-

  "The Higher Chief of the S.S. and the S.D. and the State
  Secretary for Security are directly subordinate to the
  Governor General, and, if he is absent, then to his

Does this not mean that Himmler, so to speak, agreed with
your ideal in the sense that the police should be
subordinate to you?

A. Certainly. On that day I was satisfied, but a few days
later the whole thing was changed. I can only say that these
efforts on my part were continued, but unfortunately it was
never possible to put them into effect.

You will find here in paragraph 3, if you care to go on,
that the Reichsfuehrer S.S., according to the expected
decree by the Fuehrer, could give orders to the State
Secretary. So, you see, Himmler, here, had reserved the
right to give orders to Krueger directly.

Q. That is true, but in that case I must ask you to refer to
another part of the document.

A. May I say in this connection that this agreement was
never put into effect but was published in the
Reichsgesetzblatt in the form of a Fuehrer decree.
Unfortunately, I do not know the date of that, but you can
find the decree about the regulation of security matters in
the Government General, and that is the only authoritative
statement. Here, also, reference is made to the "expected
decree by the Fuehrer," and that agreement was just a draft
of what was to appear in the Fuehrer decree.

Q. Yes, I was just proceeding to that subject. You agree
that this decision was practically a verbatim decree of the

A. I cannot say that offhand. If you will be good enough to
give me the words of the Fuehrer decree I will be able to
tell you about that.

Q. Yes. Incidentally this decree appears in your Document

A. I haven't the document. It seems to me that the most
essential parts of that agreement have been taken and put
into this decree, with a few changes. However, the book has
been taken away from me and I cannot compare it.

THE PRESIDENT: The book will be submitted to you now.

A. And very important changes made, unfortunately.

Q. I would request you to turn to paragraph 3 of Hitler's
decree, dated 7 May, 1942. It is stated here that the State
Secretary for Security is directly subordinate to the
Governor General. Does this not confirm the fact that

                                                  [Page 121]

the police of the Government General were, nevertheless,
directly subordinate to you? That is paragraph 3 of the

A. I would like to say that that is not so. The police were
not subordinate to me, even by reason of that decree, only
the State Secretary for Security. It does not say here that
the police are subordinate to the Governor General, only the
State Secretary for Security is subordinate to him. If you
read paragraph 4, then you come to the difficulties again.
Adolf Hitler's decree was naturally drawn up in my absence.
I was not consulted by Hitler, otherwise I would have
protested, but in any case it was found impracticable.

Paragraph 4 says that the Reichsfuehrer S.S. and Chief of
the German Police gave direct instructions to the State
Secretary for Security in the field of security and the
strengthening of Germandom. If with this you compare the
original agreement, as contained in the diary, you will find
that in one of the most important fields the Fuehrer had
changed his mind, that is, concerning the Commissar for the
Strengthening of Germandom. This title embraces the Jewish
question and the question of colonisation.

Q. It appears to me, defendant, that you have only taken
into consideration one aspect of this question and that you
have given a rather one-sided interpretation of the excerpt
quoted. May I recall to your memory paragraph 4 of this
decree which, in sub-paragraph 2, reads as follows:-

  "The State Secretary" - this means Kruger - "can receive
  the consent of the Governor General to carry out the
  directives of Reichsfuehrer S.S. and the German Police."

And now permit me to turn to paragraph 5 of this self-same
decree of Hitler's which states that in cases of
divergencies of opinion between the Governor General and the
Reichsfuehrer of the S.S. and the German Police, his
decision must be obtained and would be communicated by the
Head of the Reich Chancellery. In this connection I would
ask you, does not this paragraph testify to the very
considerable rights granted to you in respect to the police
and the S.S. in the Government General and to your own
responsibility for the activities of these organisations?

A. The wording of the decree testifies to it, but the actual
development was quite to the contrary. I believe that we
will come to that in detail. I maintain, therefore, that
also this attempt to gain some influence over the police and
the S.S. failed.

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