The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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Last-Modified: 2000/01/13

DR. PANNENBECKER (counsel for defendant Frick): I ask the
Tribunal permission to ask a few supplementary questions
for, during cross-examination, the witness stated that the
defendant Frick had visited the concentration camps
Sachsenhausen and Oranienburg in 1938.


Q. Witness, when an inspection of the concentration camp of
Oranienburg took place at that time, 1937-8, was there any
evidence at all of atrocities?

A. No.

Q. Why not?

A. Because there was no question of atrocities at that time.

Q. Is it correct that at that period of time the
concentration camp at Oranienburg was still a model of order
and efficiency and that agriculture was the main occupation?

A. Yes. However, work was mainly done in workshops, in -
wood-finishing workshops.

Q. Can you give me any details as to what was shown in that
time at such an official visit?

A. Yes. The visiting party was led through the detainee camp
proper, inspected the quarters, the kitchen, the hospital,
and then all the administrative buildings; above all the
workshops, where the detainees were employed.

Q. At that time were the quarters and the hospitals already

A. No, at that time they were normally filled.

Q. How did these quarters look?

A. At that period of time, living quarters looked the same
as in a barracks. The internees still had bed clothing, and
all necessary hygienic facilities. Everything was in the
best of order.

DR. PANNENBECKER: That is all. I have no further questions.


Q. Witness, what, was the greatest number of labour camps
existing at any one time?

A. I cannot give the exact figure, but in my estimation
there were approximately nine hundred.

Q. What was the population of these nine hundred?

A. I am not able to say that either; the population varied.
There were camps with one hundred internees and camps with
ten thousand internees. Therefore, I cannot give any figure
of the total number of people who were in these labour

Q. Under whose administration were the labour camps, under
what offices?

A. These labour camps were, as far as the guarding,
leadership and clothing were concerned, under the control of
the main Economic and Administration Head Office. All
matters dealing with labour and the supplying of food were
attended to by the armament industries which employed these

Q. And at the end of the war were the conditions in those
labour camps similar to those existing in the concentration
camps as you described them before?

A. Yes. Since there was no longer any possibility of
removing ill internees to the actual concentration camps,
there was much overcrowding and the death rate was very high
in these labour camps.

                                                  [Page 364]

THE PRESIDENT: The witness can retire. Dr. Kauffmann, does
that close your case?

DR. KAUFFMANN: Mr. President, I wish to call another witness
with the permission of the Tribunal, the witness Neubacher.

Hermann Neubacher, a witness, took the stand and testified
as follows:


Q. Will you state your full name?

A. Hermann Neubacher.

Q. Will you repeat this oath after me:

I swear by God the Almighty and Omniscient that I will speak
the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing?

(Witness repeated oath.)


Q. Witness, what was your position before the war and during
the war?

A. For five years during the war I was abroad on diplomatic
missions. Before the war I was Mayor of the city of Vienna.

Q. Do you know the defendant Kaltenbrunner?

A. I do.

Q. Since when have you known him?

A. I met Kaltenbrunner for the first time in Austria in 1934
in connection with the so-called appeasement action of the
engineer Reinthaler in Austria. Later I saw him again, after
the Anschluss.

Q. In the year 1943 Kaltenbrunner was appointed Chief of the
R.S.H.A. Are you acquainted with that fact?

A. Yes, I am.

Q. Do you know whether Kaltenbrunner was glad to take this

A. Kaltenbrunner told me, I believe at the end Of 1943, that
he did not wish to take that position, that he had declined
three times but then had received a military order to
accept. He added that he had requested and had been given a
promise to be relieved of this office after the war.

Q. Did you have the opportunity or opportunities to judge
how the defendant regarded his task as chief of the

A. I had a number of conversations with Kaltenbrunner during
my official visits to the Main Office from time to time, but
they all dealt with foreign intelligence and foreign policy.

Q. The R.S.H.A. was in control of the Gestapo. Are you
familiar with that fact?

A. Yes.

Q. According to your knowledge of the defendant's character,
can you tell whether he had the prerequisites and the
qualifications necessary for the position of chief of the
police executive?

A. Kaltenbrunner, as far as I was acquainted with him, had
no knowledge of police work when he assumed his office. In
the year 1941 he wanted to leave the police.

Q. What proofs do you have for this?

A. At that time I was a special representative for economic
questions in Roumania. Kaltenbrunner told me that he did not
like a police career and did not understand anything about
police work and, furthermore, had no interest in it. He was
interested, however, in foreign political affairs.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal does not think that is really
evidence which ought to be given. It cannot affect his
official position, the fact he did not like it.

Q. Kaltenbrunner was called the successor of Heydrich. Can
that be considered entirely true?

A. It cannot, and that I know because ...

THE PRESIDENT: That's a matter of argument. This witness's
opinion cannot

                                                  [Page 365]

affect the position of Kaltenbrunner. This witness cannot
testify whether he was called a successor to Heydrich or
another Heydrich.

DR. KAUFFMANN: The prosecution speaks in a disdainful way
that Kaltenbrunner was the successor of the evil, notorious
Heydrich. This witness knows them both, therefore I believe

THE PRESIDENT: The witness has already admitted that he was
the successor of Heydrich. You may ask him if he was another

DR. KAUFFMANN: Please, will you tell whether he was called a
second Heydrich?

A. Himmler himself declared ...

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal feels that that is incompetent.

DR. KAUFFMANN: I understand. I now come to the next

Is there anything to show just why Himmler selected the
defendant Kaltenbrunner?

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal does not think that the witness
can give any evidence as to what Himmler thought. Himmler
appointed him.

DR. KAUFFMANN: The witness, so far as I am told, will report
something from a conversation with Himmler, which clearly
shows that Himmler selected Kaltenbrunner and no one else
because he did not fear Kaltenbrunner in any way. The
prosecution contends exactly the opposite, He therefore
knows that the prosecution's contention is entirely

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal thinks you cannot ask what
Himmler said about his appointment, if he said anything to
this witness. You can ask him what did Himmler say about the
appointment to Kaltenbrunner.

DR. KAUFFMANN: Please begin, witness.

THE WITNESS: During the course of a conversation with
Himmler when I was at his office at Headquarters to look at
the death mask of Heydrich, Himmler said to me that he had
suffered an irreparable loss through the death of this man.
After Heydrich, no one person could any longer assume these
wide functions, only he who had developed this system could
do that. Upon my question, "What about Kaltenbrunner?"
Himmler said as follows:

  "Of course as an Austrian you are interested in that
  matter. Kaltenbrunner will have to get used to the work.
  He is now diligently occupied with matters of interest to
  you, with foreign intelligence."

Thus spoke Himmler.

Q. Do you have any knowledge of the fact that soon after he
assumed office in the year 1943, Kaltenbrunner assiduously
tried to establish contact abroad, because he considered the
military situation at that time as hopeless?

A. Kaltenbrunner was, as I know from many conversations,
always striving for a so-called "talk with the enemy"
(Feindgespraech). He was convinced that we could not come
out of this war favourably without the use of some large-
scale diplomacy. I did not discuss further details with him
concerning the war. In Germany, everyone was sentenced to
death who, even to a single person, expressed a doubt about
the victory of Germany.

Q. Did Kaltenbrunner support you in your efforts to mitigate
as much as possible the terror policy in Serbia?

A. Yes, I owe much to Kaltenbrunner's support in this
respect. The German police offices in Serbia knew, through
me and through Kaltenbrunner, that the latter, as chief of
the foreign intelligence service, wholeheartedly supported
my policy in the south-east area. I succeeded, therefore, in
making my influence felt in the police offices, and the
support from Kaltenbrunner was valuable to me in my
endeavours to overthrow, with the help of intelligent
officers, the current system of collective responsibility
and reprisals.

Q. Do you know the basic attitude of Kaltenbrunner towards
the Jewish question?

A. I spoke once very briefly with Kaltenbrunner about this
matter. When rumours kept multiplying of a systematic action
against the Jews, I asked Kalten-

                                                  [Page 366]

brunner, "Is there any truth in this?" Kaltenbrunner briefly
told me that that was a special action which was not under
his command. He rarely touched on the subject before me, and
later, I believe it was at the beginning or end of 1944, he
told me briefly that a new policy had been adopted in the.
treatment of the Jews. His voice had the triumphant ring of
a man proud of his victory.

Q. Kaltenbrunner is characterised as "hungry for Power." Do
you know what kind of a life he led?

A. Kaltenbrunner led a simple life. He never acquired a
fortune ...

THE PRESIDENT: The prosecution has not called him "hungry
for power." There is no charge against him as being "hungry
for power."

DR. KAUFFMANN: Hungry for power and cruel. Both of these
words were expressly used.

THE PRESIDENT: But being "hungry for power" or "cruel" is
quite different.

DR. KAUFFMANN: Yes, I am just asking about the first term.

THE PRESIDENT: I was just wondering where these terms were

DR. KAUFFMANN: The Indictment contains both these terms:
"Hungry for power" and "cruel."

THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): It certainly isn't in the
Indictment. We find no allegation in the Indictment which
reads "hungry for power and cruel," and we do not recollect
any mention being made in the statement in the prosecution's

DR. KAUFFMANN: But I would not have had notes taken on it
otherwise. In the Indictment, there is a page with the
heading "Summary and Conclusion." I am referring to the last
paragraph, where it says:

  "As all other Nazis, Kaltenbrunner was hungry for power.
  In order to assure himself of power he signed his name in
  blood - a name which will remain in memory as a symbol
  for cruelty, for ..."

THE PRESIDENT: Where are you reading from? What are you
reading from?

DR. KAUFFMANN: From the Indictment on the last page, under
the heading:
"Summary and Conclusion."

MR. DODD: I think I can clarify the matter. It is rather
clear that the counsel is reading from my trial brief. The
trial brief was never offered in evidence in court, but it
was handed to the counsel.

DR. KAUFFMANN: If that will not be maintained I do not need
to ask any questions on that point.

I now come to the next question. Do you know, witness,
whether Kaltenbrunner gave an order for the evacuation of
concentration camps?

A. No.

Q. Did Kaltenbrunner, from your experience and observations,
do everything as chief of his office to mitigate the
severity of inhuman measures or prevent their application?

A. I must call your attention to the fact that I was abroad
for five years and could observe little of what was
happening within Germany. From what I know of Kaltenbrunner,
I do not doubt that he gave way to the illusion that he was
able to influence the course of events. He was in no way
capable of doing so.

Q. Thus, I come to the last question.

Do you know of a case where he used his power, in spite of
opposition from the police, to liberate two church
dignitaries of the orthodox church in Serbia?

A. Yes, I am familiar with that. These two church
dignitaries -

THE PRESIDENT: How is this relevant to Kaltenbrunner?

DR. KAUFFMANN: He is accused of having persecuted the
churches. The prosecution expressly accuses Kaltenbrunner of
persecuting churches, with the objective of annihilation of
Christianity. This accusation is contained, I can say this
with assurance, in the records; and it is to this that my
question refers.

THE PRESIDENT: The answer to it cannot answer any charge
against Kaltenbrunner, can it?

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